Minimum rest in the 703 world

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mmm..bacon
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by mmm..bacon »

Pssssst chhhk.....glug glug glug.. :drinkers: “But you said I was off duty...”
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smooth
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by smooth »

Best way is to leave those job
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NotDirty!
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by NotDirty! »

This sounds an awful lot like a company that I used to work for. It was, however very rare for something like this to happen, maybe once or twice a year, company wide (~14 airplanes). It was always a case of another machine going mechanical in the middle of nowhere, and the previously released crew got called back in to operate the rescue mission. Nobody liked doing it, but nobody really complained because they hoped that someone else would do the same for them if they were the ones broke down in ZKE!

If I’m wrong, and this is being done on a daily basis, then you have a legitimate gripe! But if it is as rare as I remember it, and you are fit to fly when they call you, please help your fellow pilots out! Or if you are truly too fatigued to accept the trip, tell crew sched, and let them find another pilot to draft, or come up with an alternative plan.
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TheTurdBurglar
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by TheTurdBurglar »

To supplement what some people are saying, the email OP is referring to states the following:

"When does your rest period start:
1. 22:00 local or
2. 10 hours prior to your next duty period (they assign flights the day prior) or
3. When you clear the base"

 The email then goes on to emphasize that the rest period is not a designated event for flight crew members on-reserve in the same way that it is for those on-call (medevac) and explains you can clear after a 6 hour day and be called 10 hours later for a flight (the company's min rest period) or again an hour after your 6 day period and fly for another 7-8 hours, until the 15th hour after your first call.

It seems to me the question here is: Is the beginning of rest period a designated event for an on-reserve pilot? If not, is the company doing anything illegal by operating as such, or is it just a less-than-favourable position to be in as a pilot, if it's done on the regular?

I agree with most people: get a solid answer when you clear. "Is my rest period beginning?" Or, if you don't like it, move on to somewhere else.
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digits_
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by digits_ »

NotDirty! wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:55 am This sounds an awful lot like a company that I used to work for. It was, however very rare for something like this to happen, maybe once or twice a year, company wide (~14 airplanes). It was always a case of another machine going mechanical in the middle of nowhere, and the previously released crew got called back in to operate the rescue mission. Nobody liked doing it, but nobody really complained because they hoped that someone else would do the same for them if they were the ones broke down in ZKE!

If I’m wrong, and this is being done on a daily basis, then you have a legitimate gripe! But if it is as rare as I remember it, and you are fit to fly when they call you, please help your fellow pilots out! Or if you are truly too fatigued to accept the trip, tell crew sched, and let them find another pilot to draft, or come up with an alternative plan.
His gripe is that he thinks it is illegal. If that is the case, it is a problem even if it only happens once a year.

If it is legal, it is a matter of asking yourself if you are compensated enough to deal with such a schedule.

This has absolutely nothing to do with being a nice guy or helping pilots out. Trying to be a nice guy and flying when you shouldn't has killed more people than being a d*ck and refusing a trip ever will.
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Trematode
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by Trematode »

720.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:

(a) the air operator shall provide the flight crew member with 24 hours notice of the time of commencement and duration of the rest period. The designated rest period cannot shift more than 3 hours earlier or later than the preceding rest period, nor more than a total of 8 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(b) the flight crew member shall be given a minimum of 10 hours notice of the assignment and shall not be assigned any duty for these 10 hours;
or
(c) the air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to flight duty time and shall not interrupt the flight crew member's rest period between 22:00 and 06:00 local time.
(2) Where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for flight duty or the reporting time occurs between 22:00 and 06:00 local time:

(a) the maximum flight duty time shall be 10 consecutive hours; and
(b) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by at least one-half the length of the preceding flight duty time.
The 10 hours notice method (method B) and the "OR" to the late call out duty restriction method (method C) is the part that absolutely screws over the pilot on reserve and opens the door for 24 hour reserve.

Operators can completely ignore the guidance to set designated reserve periods and keep them from shifting reserve periods more than 3 hours (method A), and instead flip back and forth between method (b) and (c) giving a paltry 10 hours notice or to simply take the hit to the max duty day if something pops up between 22:00-06:00 -- and most pop-up charters can be completed within 10 hours so it's not a big deal. This leaves the pilot group at the operation completely in the dark when it comes to planning their rest, and is a recipe for abuse and fatigue.

"Good" operators use method A. If you're lucky, you work for one of them. Are there any of them in the 703 world? I haven't heard of a single one.

The reserve regs are an absolute joke.
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lownslow
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by lownslow »

Trematode wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:44 am "Good" operators use method A. If you're lucky, you work for one of them. Are there any of them in the 703 world?
Are there any 705s that even go to all that trouble?
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by goingnowherefast »

My reserve hours are contractually fixed and can't be moved easily. I know days/weeks in advance exactly which hours I am expecting to be available. Outside those hours I've never received a call.

As I understand it, my contract has better reserve rules than Air Canada. Still pretty crap compared to regulations in other countries, Europe, etc. but better than the Canadian regs.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by Capt. Underpants »

Trematode wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:44 am The 10 hours notice method (method B) and the "OR" to the late call out duty restriction method (method C) is the part that absolutely screws over the pilot on reserve and opens the door for 24 hour reserve.

Operators can completely ignore the guidance to set designated reserve periods and keep them from shifting reserve periods more than 3 hours (method A), and instead flip back and forth between method (b) and (c) giving a paltry 10 hours notice or to simply take the hit to the max duty day if something pops up between 22:00-06:00 -- and most pop-up charters can be completed within 10 hours so it's not a big deal. This leaves the pilot group at the operation completely in the dark when it comes to planning their rest, and is a recipe for abuse and fatigue.

"Good" operators use method A. If you're lucky, you work for one of them. Are there any of them in the 703 world? I haven't heard of a single one.

The reserve regs are an absolute joke.
A past employer received an audit finding from TC which said the COM violated the reserve regulations because it did not address how the company would switch between the options A, B and C. They were forced to advise every reserve crew member which option they were assigned to for the monthly roster period. In other words, they couldn’t just switch it on a whim.
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AOW
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by AOW »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:46 am My reserve hours are contractually fixed and can't be moved easily. I know days/weeks in advance exactly which hours I am expecting to be available. Outside those hours I've never received a call.

As I understand it, my contract has better reserve rules than Air Canada. Still pretty crap compared to regulations in other countries, Europe, etc. but better than the Canadian regs.
Air Canada’s reserve rules are worse than a lot of 703! But the grass is always greener....
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by valleyboy »

Air Canada’s reserve rules are worse than a lot of 703! But the grass is always greener....
But you can book sick at Air Canada :smt040
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by goingnowherefast »

Booking off sick worked great for the crew of AC 759...

Canada should be embarrassed by our duty rules, even the new ones.
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simplicity
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by simplicity »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:26 pm Booking off sick worked great for the crew of AC 759...

Canada should be embarrassed by our duty rules, even the new ones.
More likely to see a pilot book off because of smog in Beijing or Dehli, civil unrest in HK or Santiago over being tired. Especially when that phone call comes offering draft on a 25 credit trip.

We are our own worst enemy.
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by valleyboy »

Let's face it the bush mentality and culture is still part of Canadian aviation and part of industry heritage. Too much lobbying allowed and a group of law makers who have no backbone. Canadian pilots don't get tired and can work for days without rest. We are simply gods.
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Trematode
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by Trematode »

A past employer received an audit finding from TC which said the COM violated the reserve regulations because it did not address how the company would switch between the options A, B and C. They were forced to advise every reserve crew member which option they were assigned to for the monthly roster period. In other words, they couldn’t just switch it on a whim.
This is interesting to me, and I would love to see something in the CARs where it specifies this requirement in clear terms -- otherwise it's just arbitrary and subject to the whims of any local TC auditor or enforcement personnel.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by Capt. Underpants »

Trematode wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:43 pm This is interesting to me, and I would love to see something in the CARs where it specifies this requirement in clear terms -- otherwise it's just arbitrary and subject to the whims of any local TC auditor or enforcement personnel.
The operator in question is no longer around, but at the time, they asked for a regulatory interpretation. The response said that the intent of the regulation was clear, in that it states:
An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:
The word "one" was the key.
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Altimeter
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by Altimeter »

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/securitas

Unsafe procedures and practices:

Crew scheduling problems: inadequate crew composition, unqualified crew, inadequate crew rest
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digits_
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by digits_ »

Altimeter wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:53 pm https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/securitas

Unsafe procedures and practices:

Crew scheduling problems: inadequate crew composition, unqualified crew, inadequate crew rest
What happens with messages received like that? Is it all handled by the TSB, or do TC inspectors get involved as well?
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Re: Minimum rest in the 703 world

Post by A Regulator »

Well you could call the phone number and ask but it most likely is a clerical position that checks the mailbox then depending on the department the email is forwarded to the TSB inspector for review and followup. He would need a contact name to look into the details and then they would contact the region where the operator has its main base. From there they would try to talk to the POI of the company and ask some questions.
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