Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

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nwopilot
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Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by nwopilot »

Hello,

If I had a Pc-12 Type rating, but I had not completed a PPC within 1 year, would I still be able to ferry a Pc-12 for a new owner? Do you require a ppc to ferry aircraft for a private owner? What part of the cars does this fall under? Are you able to charge money?

Thanks!
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simplicity
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by simplicity »

Aren't PC12s only registerable under 604? If that's the case I'd imagine you need a PPC. I might be wrong but I thought there was something special about PC12s in Canada where they can't be operated just privately.
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photofly
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by photofly »

A Canadian PC12 requires a part 604 private operator registration to carry passengers or goods, but if it’s just the ferry pilot on board it appears to be exempt.
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simplicity
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by simplicity »

Ah ok. Should be good to go then. Kinda scary though that any random pilot can go fly a PC12 with a single engine PPL.

Well I guess not anyone, since you'd need insurance.
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2112
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by 2112 »

If you end up needing someone with a current PPC shoot me a PM.
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ayseven
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by ayseven »

Or call if you want someone without a ppc who thinks it would be a cool experience. I have time on my hands.
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185_guy
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by 185_guy »

It’s been a while since I’ve had to know.....do you even get a ‘PPC’ or is it a PCC on a PC12 being a single engine?
And there is no type rating, as it’s under 12,500? Just curious!!!
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2112
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by 2112 »

Yep PPC required for left seat 703. You can sit in the right with a PCC as long as it's operated two crew as per your COM otherwise your just single pilot.
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valleyboy
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by valleyboy »

Non revenue ferry flight even a company rescue mission no current ppc is required even in 705 as long as you have a type rating(heavy aircraft) no ppc required. As long as you have the proper licence for weight catagory. Not a commercial flight current ppc not needed.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by Capt. Underpants »

valleyboy wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:55 am
Non revenue ferry flight even a company rescue mission no current ppc is required even in 705 as long as you have a type rating(heavy aircraft) no ppc required. As long as you have the proper licence for weight category. Not a commercial flight current ppc not needed.
So let's say you want to ferry a C-reg Q400 between YUL and YYZ. If you're not under 705, what part of the regs would you be operating under?
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iflyforpie
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by iflyforpie »

705.

And in 705.106 (3) it says you don’t need a PPC for ferry flights.

You also don’t need a PPC for 702 even with a passenger carrying Ops spec, and for VFR single engine operations under 703.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

co-joe
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by co-joe »

The old license format used to be more descriptive and indicative of what you could do with it. My CPL from 2000 said "All single pilot non high performance, single and multi engine land aeroplanes..." Provided you aren't carrying paying pax you can fly all single engine non high performance aeroplanes. Pretty sure the PC12 is non high performance. Technically if you do the ferry and don't charge for it, a PPL is enough, if they pay you, you require a CPL, and if you carry paying pax, then it has to be don IAW an appropriate OC, with all that comes with it, like a PPC, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong mighty internet.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by goingnowherefast »

Turbine, pressurized and 6+ seats can't be flown privately. Well, 604, but that's still under an operating certificate.

The ferry flight will be operated under somebody's OC. In the case of a PC12 it will be under 604, 702 or 703. You don't need a PPC, but you'll still need everything else.
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Bede
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by Bede »

604.03 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate any of the following Canadian aircraft for the purpose of transporting passengers or goods unless the person is the holder of a private operator registration document:

(a) a large aeroplane;

(b) a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane; or

(c) a turbine-powered pressurized aeroplane certificated for more than six passenger seats.
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Axial Flow
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by Axial Flow »

From AC 604-004 on the plain language breakdown of 604.02..03
Note: The operators of the aircraft listed in subsection 604.03(1) of the CARs Prohibition must register as a Private Operator, unless they are operating in accordance with Part VII of the CARs or under a flight permit issued under Airworthiness Standard 507 of the CARs.
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by photofly »

Which regulation would have been broken if someone flies a PC12 with just themselves on board without a PORD?
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valleyboy
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by valleyboy »

You don't even need an autopilot to fly single pilot IFR let alone a PPC. A PPC is a commercial ops requirement. Non rev, ferry flight or a company service flight or just the boss jumping in to go to a meeting is all good. PPC is not part of your pilot's license. Back in the day when TC could not keep up with rides and PPC's, there were operators who advised TC that after training pilots would be working without a PPC until TC could supply inspectors to conduct the rides. PPC is only needed when AC is conducting a commercial flight but not a part of your license. To the letter of the law pilots are not even responsible to track PPC currency and is a company requirement unlike your medical, IFR and license which falls totally on our shoulders.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by jakeandelwood »

Call the owners insurance underwriter, they will make the final decision on who can fly it anyway.
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valleyboy
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by valleyboy »

Certainly but the insurance company would only be concerned about experience level and current and proper licence for type and of course goes without saying crew requirements as set out in the certification. Then it's all down to owner's permission. It's like a dog chasing its tail. I had the same reaction from my pilots when I would jump in and go solo to an event. They could not get their 700 hr mind around it.
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Axial Flow
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by Axial Flow »

photofly wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:55 pm
Which regulation would have been broken if someone flies a PC12 with just themselves on board without a PORD?
As long as you didn't carry passengers or goods and flew on conventional navaids and didn't go into RVSM airspace you would be fine. If you need special authorizations (GPS, RVSM) then you have to register.



Section 604.03 5,000 25,000
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digits_
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by digits_ »

Axial Flow wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:19 pm
If you need special authorizations (GPS, RVSM) then you have to register.
You need to register to fly GPS approaches? Not sure what you are trying to say. If he flies privately in his PC12, and the GPS equipment in his PC12 is certified, why would he need to register anything to use the certified GPS installation?
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Axial Flow
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by Axial Flow »

You need to register to fly GPS approaches? Not sure what you are trying to say. If he flies privately in his PC12, and the GPS equipment in his PC12 is certified, why would he need to register anything to use the certified GPS installation?
Yes, as it states in the AFM under GPS limitations...that it is approved for certain types of use but it does not mean it grants operational approval. To obtain a special authorization you need a COM (PORD) to submit to ensure you have training and procedures to use it...if you go read the AC 604-004 it lays it out nicely.

But if you are current on single engine land, valid license and have a group 3 IFR, meet insurance requirements, aren't carrying passengers or using SA's and the aircraft meets the standards of airworthiness (also valid C of R, C of A)...etc...you should be ok. With requirements like that to fly just yourself...no wonder flying is stupid expensive.
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digits_
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Re: Do you need a valid ppc to ferry aircraft?

Post by digits_ »

Axial Flow wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:39 pm
You need to register to fly GPS approaches? Not sure what you are trying to say. If he flies privately in his PC12, and the GPS equipment in his PC12 is certified, why would he need to register anything to use the certified GPS installation?
Yes, as it states in the AFM under GPS limitations...that it is approved for certain types of use but it does not mean it grants operational approval. To obtain a special authorization you need a COM (PORD) to submit to ensure you have training and procedures to use it...if you go read the AC 604-004 it lays it out nicely.
Why is AC 604-004 applicable for a PC12 ferry flight? If you don't need an OC, then 604-004 isn't applicable.
1.2 Applicability

(1) This document applies to operators of Canadian private aircraft that are required to, or wish to, obtain a Private Operator Registration Document or a Special Authorization and operate in accordance with subpart 604 of the CARs – Private Operators.
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