2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by DanWEC »

Anyone else following this? The family's suit is finally being heard in Superior Court. A lot of people in the area including myself were touched in some way by this. Ostensibly it has always been a textbook case of overweight and icing conditions, but I'm not sure I have 100% confidence in Georgian Express (As it was known at the time...and a rep even worse than it is today.) not pushing the pilot a bit. We may learn internal pressure was also a factor, like so many other accidents.

Apparently, he may have been told flat out to go..... here is some testimony to support it.
https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/wit ... and-flight

The pilot was a guy I didn't know personally so I won't cast stones, but instructors at the Windsor Flying Club would do the mail run occasionally if needed and the pay wasn't any more than a regular flying hour. Even though he was an experienced guy I could see him not being paid much and not getting a ton of support from ops. There's no excuse for not saying no- but it's much harder when your boss won't like it.

The ops manager, who testified today, was temporarily suspended immediately after the incident, either because of distancing or throwing under the bus.

Trial continues in Chatham, Ont.
---------- ADS -----------
  

7ECA
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 866
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by 7ECA »

The emails that go out from Skies Magazine occasionally have links to articles about the trial.

The one describing how an employee was pressured to delete correspondence about pilot training/records was a fascinating insight into the operation.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1634
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by DanWEC »

RIght?
It's frustrating. At least TC had the nads to shut them down after. Clearly enough evidence to warrant losing their OC, it doesn't just happen after a crash.
Of course, Georgian Express's parent company continued on to be the shining bastion of respect and culture that they are and always have been...…..
---------- ADS -----------
  

whipline
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:40 am

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by whipline »

Certainly not my experience from Georgian. Prior to this accident the caravan had one fatal crash in Barrie and a near fatal in north bay. There were numerous memos stating the caravan operation was to shut down if their was known ice or forecast ice.

How would the lady in Pelee know what mr price said in his phone call to ops when he was calling from Windsor? Maybe a poorly written article?

I worked at Georgian, albeit not on the caravan but my experience was definitely a much different one from what’s being said.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

They always pushed but when we said no, that was the end of it...then they usually found the next pilot in line to do it.
And we still flew in ice after the North Bay crash.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1311
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

I remember it as if it were yesterday. Everyone involved should serve jail time. I know Caravans. I know what they're like in ice.
Family needs a mouth piece in court. PM me.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
  
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.

co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3553
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by co-joe »

I believe this crash is the main reason 703 and 704 ops have to use the ridiculous segmented weights formula based on the number of seats on the aircraft type certificate and the ratio of females to males instead of the standard weights used in 705 that the rest of the industry used to be able to use. All that formula meant to me is I had to take less fuel and be less safe imo.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Most regs are written in blood...
---------- ADS -----------
  

47north
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:44 am

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by 47north »

[quote=whipline post_id=1097446 time=1575730685 user_id=4159

I worked at Georgian, albeit not on the caravan but my experience was definitely a much different one from what’s being said.
[/quote]

Not the same story that the former AGN pilots are saying as they come to Jazz.

The fact that most of their CRJ fleet is grounded due to non-compliance with ADs speaks volumes.
---------- ADS -----------
  

whipline
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:40 am

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by whipline »

Two different companies 47. I was there when it was Canadian then AC. This accident was a long time ago. Not under the most recent management. But again I was on the 1900 side. The only thing we were “forced” to do was taxi aircraft all over the airport for positioning.

When the current ex Georgian pilots at my company found out their VP flight ops had an interview with us I believe roughly 30 of them came forward..and not in a good way.

Back to the original topic. We’re you really pressured to fly into areas of known or forecast freezing rain or moderate icing? I don’t recall the wording on the memo but I thought it was something along those lines? I never flew the caravan but I’ve heard they were horrible in anything more then light ice.

Whip
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Inverted2
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2209
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:46 am
Location: Ontario

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by Inverted2 »

I was working there at the time. I think a lot of papers were shredded and emails deleted that night. Was and has always been one of those companies. The CRJ that are being returned to Jazz have ADs that were supposed to be complied with 3 years ago.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5109
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

[quote=co-joe post_id=1097540 time=1575836696 user_id=53]
I believe this crash is the main reason 703 and 704 ops have to use the ridiculous segmented weights formula based on the number of seats on the aircraft type certificate and the ratio of females to males instead of the standard weights used in 705 that the rest of the industry used to be able to use. All that formula meant to me is I had to take less fuel and be less safe imo.
[/quote]

All that formula meant to me is I had to take less fuel and be less safe imo.
What the formula does is make sure that the actual weight of the passengers is not more than what is given to you on the manifest. Choosing to take less fuel is 100 % the choice of the PIC. Can't carry legal gas plus any extra contingency fuel you feel is necessary using segmented weights ? It is time to either

1) Get actual weights for all passengers, or
2) Bump freight and/or passengers

YOU are the one responsible to carry enough gas and not fly overweight
---------- ADS -----------
  

7ECA
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 866
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by 7ECA »

Even as we speak the folks at the companies involved are popping Champagne corks and breathing a sigh of relief...

Headline: "Jury finds pilot at fault for Pelee Island crash..." The jury found the pilot; Wayne Price entirely at fault for the crash and awarded the plaintiffs $300,000 in damages from his estate.

https://www.chathamdailynews.ca/news/lo ... content=V1
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

PIC....the guy with the final say
---------- ADS -----------
  

Capt. Underpants
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:04 am

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by Capt. Underpants »

I guess we now know who hired the best defense lawyers.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sdotz
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: 2004 Pelee Island Georgian Express Van crash now in court

Post by sdotz »

47north wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:31 pm
[quote=whipline post_id=1097446 time=1575730685 user_id=4159

I worked at Georgian, albeit not on the caravan but my experience was definitely a much different one from what’s being said.
Not the same story that the former AGN pilots are saying as they come to Jazz.

The fact that most of their CRJ fleet is grounded due to non-compliance with ADs speaks volumes.
[/quote]
can you elaborate on what happened?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”