Corona Virus

[iflyforpie]

Truth is, it’s rarely like that. Very rarely are medical decisions the difference between life and death. My parents were both paramedics and it floored me when my mother said that she had maybe actually saved one or two people in 30 years of service.

I’ve seen that flying medevac for the last few years, too. Patients that died were likely going to die anyways. Patients that lived never really had their lives in immediate danger.

Even with the ventilators. The critical care paramedics who fly on my plane tell me that almost all COVID-19 patients that get so bad that they need to go on a ventilator, die.

I might seem a little indifferent because I’ve done some travelling around the world and these really are first world problems. This pandemic might equal what rotavirus does to a quarter million people—mostly children—every single year for lack of access to an already developed and effective vaccine and even more basic things like clean water, pedialyte, and oral rehydration therapy.... because it would affect someone else’s lifestyle and portfolio. We’ve donated funds for these for years.

[mixturerich]

Truth is, it’s rarely like that. Very rarely are medical decisions the difference between life and death. My parents were both paramedics and it floored me when my mother said that she had maybe actually saved one or two people in 30 years of service.

I’ve seen that flying medevac for the last few years, too. Patients that died were likely going to die anyways. Patients that lived never really had their lives in immediate danger.

Even with the ventilators. The critical care paramedics who fly on my plane tell me that almost all COVID-19 patients that get so bad that they need to go on a ventilator, die.

I might seem a little indifferent because I’ve done some travelling around the world and these really are first world problems. This pandemic might equal what rotavirus does to a quarter million people—mostly children—every single year for lack of access to an already developed and effective vaccine and even more basic things like clean water, pedialyte, and oral rehydration therapy.... because it would affect someone else’s lifestyle and portfolio. We’ve donated funds for these for years.

Uh, when the ICU’s overflow, the doctors have to choose who live or die. There are plenty of recent articles on this.

Sure, “almost all” patients who go on ventilator die. We obviously should still care about the ones that do make it through on the ventilator. In Wuhan about 3 out of 22 make it. Those 3 people matter.

I also don’t think something being a “first world problem” begs any indifference. Just because the developing countries suffer, that doesn’t mean there’s a blank cheque for first world suffering. That makes zero sense.

Also it is affecting a lot more than the “first world” anyways. Poor people all around the world are going to die from this virus, in fact, they’ll probably suffer the most.

You make no sense.

[complexintentions]

I believe he's simply pointing out that ventilator or not, your chances are not good once you get to the point you need one. The doctors can't do much in such situations, only designating between certain death and almost certain death. Some "choice". Of course they should try to save everyone, that isn't in question. It's, why will we make every effort to do so for Covid-19 and not for basic ongoing outbreaks that occur every year and kill far, far more?

His point about First World indifference to developing countries problems is hardly wrong. The scale and magnitude of any health problems is unimaginable in poorer places compared to richer. Completely preventable deaths - unlike almost all vented Covid-19 patients - yet no one cares because it doesn't affect "them". Now something affects "us" and look at the panic with no effort or expense spared to fight it.

You are right in that it makes no sense.

[pelmet]

I posted the statement below on another AvCanada forum but thought I might post it here. It is just an ide4a bought was wondering what people think about the idea. Any constructive criticism is welcome to point out things that I did not think of and perhaps it makes no sense at all. But at least it is an idea....thanks.


"What should be done is a quarantine of everybody over 55 for 2 months starting immediately. As well, Everybody under 55(about 75-80% of the workforce) gets back to work and out doing normal stuff. In fact, we all try to rub close together, get the disease and get it over with. Then there is close herd immunity. Meanwhile, the economy starts back up. A small percentage will die, just like in any flu year(and likely a few more). Meanwhile, those over 55 who insist on not doing this can come out too(your rights are not taken away) but you have to sign a waiver...last in line for treatment if you need hospitalization.

Not pretty but it gets the economy going and many over 55's can still work. The actual cutoff age could vary. People under 55 could still self isolate voluntarily. The only other option is a quite possible depression and all the negatives that go with it"

[flyingvinnie]

I posted the statement below on another AvCanada forum but thought I might post it here. It is just an ide4a bought was wondering what people think about the idea. Any constructive criticism is welcome to point out things that I did not think of and perhaps it makes no sense at all. But at least it is an idea....thanks.


"What should be done is a quarantine of everybody over 55 for 2 months starting immediately. As well, Everybody under 55(about 75-80% of the workforce) gets back to work and out doing normal stuff. In fact, we all try to rub close together, get the disease and get it over with. Then there is close herd immunity. Meanwhile, the economy starts back up. A small percentage will die, just like in any flu year(and likely a few more). Meanwhile, those over 55 who insist on not doing this can come out too(your rights are not taken away) but you have to sign a waiver...last in line for treatment if you need hospitalization.

Not pretty but it gets the economy going and many over 55's can still work. The actual cutoff age could vary. People under 55 could still self isolate voluntarily. The only other option is a quite possible depression and all the negatives that go with it"

Rub close together and get the disease over with, brilliant idea!

Fortunately people with more intelligence, training and knowledge are making decisions.

[pelmet]

I posted the statement below on another AvCanada forum but thought I might post it here. It is just an ide4a bought was wondering what people think about the idea. Any constructive criticism is welcome to point out things that I did not think of and perhaps it makes no sense at all. But at least it is an idea....thanks.


"What should be done is a quarantine of everybody over 55 for 2 months starting immediately. As well, Everybody under 55(about 75-80% of the workforce) gets back to work and out doing normal stuff. In fact, we all try to rub close together, get the disease and get it over with. Then there is close herd immunity. Meanwhile, the economy starts back up. A small percentage will die, just like in any flu year(and likely a few more). Meanwhile, those over 55 who insist on not doing this can come out too(your rights are not taken away) but you have to sign a waiver...last in line for treatment if you need hospitalization.

Not pretty but it gets the economy going and many over 55's can still work. The actual cutoff age could vary. People under 55 could still self isolate voluntarily. The only other option is a quite possible depression and all the negatives that go with it"

Rub close together and get the disease over with, brilliant idea!

Fortunately people with more intelligence, training and knowledge are making decisions.

Insults get us nowhere. Normally I respond in kind but this is too important. I would appreciate any constructive criticism. Intelligent people discuss all options and implement one that make sense after consideration. How about consideration with the reasons pro and con and rejecting if it doesn't make sense.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/health/c ... index.html

According to this article....."The research, published in the medical journal The Lancet Infectious Diseases, estimated that about 0.66% of those infected with the virus will die."

But what is it for under 55. I bet it is more like seasonal flu. The seasonal flu has been accepted for as long as any of us have been alive. Of course there is a seasonal flu shot but the reality is, we keep talking about this herd immunity. If we never get there, we never restart the economy and hurtle towards a world with similarities to Venezuela.

I came up with my idea as away to protect the vulnerable with quarantine yet save the economy. We accept thousands of car deaths each year, among many other things. We accept cancer deaths due to pollution. Are we willing to accept some Corona deaths while protecting the most vulnerable.

Remember...10,000 suicides in Europe and America were attributed to the last recession. There may be many more with this one. There are consequences no matter what we do.

[flyingvinnie]

I posted the statement below on another AvCanada forum but thought I might post it here. It is just an ide4a bought was wondering what people think about the idea. Any constructive criticism is welcome to point out things that I did not think of and perhaps it makes no sense at all. But at least it is an idea....thanks.


"What should be done is a quarantine of everybody over 55 for 2 months starting immediately. As well, Everybody under 55(about 75-80% of the workforce) gets back to work and out doing normal stuff. In fact, we all try to rub close together, get the disease and get it over with. Then there is close herd immunity. Meanwhile, the economy starts back up. A small percentage will die, just like in any flu year(and likely a few more). Meanwhile, those over 55 who insist on not doing this can come out too(your rights are not taken away) but you have to sign a waiver...last in line for treatment if you need hospitalization.

Not pretty but it gets the economy going and many over 55's can still work. The actual cutoff age could vary. People under 55 could still self isolate voluntarily. The only other option is a quite possible depression and all the negatives that go with it"

Rub close together and get the disease over with, brilliant idea!

Fortunately people with more intelligence, training and knowledge are making decisions.

Insults get us nowhere. Normally I respond in kind but this is too important. I would appreciate any constructive criticism. Intelligent people Discuss all options and implement one that make sense after consideration. How about consideration with the reasons pro and con and rejecting if it doesn't make sense.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/health/c ... index.html

According to this article....."The research, published in the medical journal The Lancet Infectious Diseases, estimated that about 0.66% of those infected with the virus will die."

But what is it for under 55. I bet it is more like seasonal flu. The seasonal flu has been accepted for as long as any of us have been alive. Of course there is a seasonal flu shot but the reality is, we keep talking about this herd immunity. If we never get there, we never restart the economy and hurtle towards a world with similarities to Venezuela.

I came up with my idea as away to protect the vulnerable with quarantine yet save the economy. We accept thousands of car deaths each year, among many other things. We accept cancer deaths due to pollution. Are we willing to accept some Corona deaths while protecting the most vulnerable.

Remember...10,000 suicides in Europe and America were attributed to the last recession. There may be many more with this one. There are consequences no matter what we do.

Your idea sounds dumber the more you try and make arguments to support it.

[pelmet]

Thanks for your response. Anyone else feel the same or differently.

[AnonPilot]

I believe the UK was initially trying for this herd immunity idea. They have obviously changed course quickly. The hospitals become overwhelmed and it’s almost impossible to track the disease spread and transmission. We stopped doing these “Chicken Pox Parties” a long time ago.

[flyingvinnie]

Rub close together and get the disease over with, brilliant idea!

Fortunately people with more intelligence, training and knowledge are making decisions.

Insults get us nowhere. Normally I respond in kind but this is too important. I would appreciate any constructive criticism. Intelligent people Discuss all options and implement one that make sense after consideration. How about consideration with the reasons pro and con and rejecting if it doesn't make sense.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/health/c ... index.html

According to this article....."The research, published in the medical journal The Lancet Infectious Diseases, estimated that about 0.66% of those infected with the virus will die."

But what is it for under 55. I bet it is more like seasonal flu. The seasonal flu has been accepted for as long as any of us have been alive. Of course there is a seasonal flu shot but the reality is, we keep talking about this herd immunity. If we never get there, we never restart the economy and hurtle towards a world with similarities to Venezuela.

I came up with my idea as away to protect the vulnerable with quarantine yet save the economy. We accept thousands of car deaths each year, among many other things. We accept cancer deaths due to pollution. Are we willing to accept some Corona deaths while protecting the most vulnerable.

Remember...10,000 suicides in Europe and America were attributed to the last recession. There may be many more with this one. There are consequences no matter what we do.

Your idea sounds dumber the more you try and make arguments to support it.

Do you honestly think that hasn’t been thought of before? Do you think “your idea” is unique? There’s many smart people that have spent their careers dealing with and studying these such scenario. It’s quite obvious why “your idea” is absolutely absurd.

[Capt. Underpants]

Pelmet,

You’re asking for a clinical approach to an emotional problem. Imagine, instead of that idea, we decide to make everyone stand in the streets wearing a blindfold and we’ll send a fleet of trucks through at high speed. The lucky ones who dive the right way will be saved, too bad for the rest. Okay, that may be unfair but that’s how I envision your scenario as this is an enemy we can’t see.

I suppose your suggestion is not unlike sending troops into a war zone. But in a war zone, you have an idea of your vulnerabilities and what you must do to minimize casualties where possible. With this virus there are many things we don’t yet understand in terms of the threat. Why did Prince Charles have a fairly mild case, but a healthy young woman in her 20’s died in Alberta? Some claim it’s harder for people who are overweight, others say there’s no correlation. There’s also the fact that the people in the military “signed up” for the danger. My 28 year old immune compromised nephew didn’t sign up for the strong likelihood that he’d die in your scenario, nor did my mid-30’s colleague who takes anti rejection drugs for an organ transplant - to name but a few of the thousands of exemptions that would need consideration.

It’s telling that while they have specific questions about some decisions, none of the political opposition parties in this country is railing at what’s being done to deal with it. In truth, many of them are probably breathing a sigh of relief that it wasn’t them who was thrust into the COVID-19 spotlight.

It’s my opinion that this virus is going to fundamentally change society, including some changes that many won’t like. There will be more nationalism and there will be a chorus of calls to make more of our necessities at home. There will be a shit ton of racism against people from China, and most of them have never partaken of the kinds of “food” that seems to be the source of this scourge. People who are motivated by money will be particularly upset at what’s to come because they’re about to be carrying a significantly greater tax burden. Not even Donald Trump is going to be able to stop it.

[pelmet]

Pelmet,

You’re asking for a clinical approach to an emotional problem. Imagine, instead of that idea, we decide to make everyone stand in the streets wearing a blindfold and we’ll send a fleet of trucks through at high speed. The lucky ones who dive the right way will be saved, too bad for the rest. Okay, that may be unfair but that’s how I envision your scenario as this is an enemy we can’t see.

I suppose your suggestion is not unlike sending troops into a war zone. But in a war zone, you have an idea of your vulnerabilities and what you must do to minimize casualties where possible. With this virus there are many things we don’t yet understand in terms of the threat. Why did Prince Charles have a fairly mild case, but a healthy young woman in her 20’s died in Alberta? Some claim it’s harder for people who are overweight, others say there’s no correlation. There’s also the fact that the people in the military “signed up” for the danger. My 28 year old immune compromised nephew didn’t sign up for the strong likelihood that he’d die in your scenario, nor did my mid-30’s colleague who takes anti rejection drugs for an organ transplant - to name but a few of the thousands of exemptions that would need consideration.

It’s telling that while they have specific questions about some decisions, none of the political opposition parties in this country is railing at what’s being done to deal with it. In truth, many of them are probably breathing a sigh of relief that it wasn’t them who was thrust into the COVID-19 spotlight.

It’s my opinion that this virus is going to fundamentally change society, including some changes that many won’t like. There will be more nationalism and there will be a chorus of calls to make more of our necessities at home. There will be a shit ton of racism against people from China, and most of them have never partaken of the kinds of “food” that seems to be the source of this scourge. People who are motivated by money will be particularly upset at what’s to come because they’re about to be carrying a significantly greater tax burden. Not even Donald Trump is going to be able to stop it.

Thanks,

I appreciate intelligent responses.

So expanding on your obvious concern, any person under 55 with known risks such as immune compromised would remain under quarantine as well.(which is basically what is being done voluntarily right now). Meanwhile, the vast majority who are not immune compromised and are healthy would head back to work. A small number would die in car crashes, construction accidents, the flu, and Covid-19. The first three have been acceptable for years and would not be criticized today. When does number 4 also become acceptable.

[Capt. Underpants]

We’ve resigned ourselves to the fact that deaths have and will continue to occur - the news cycle gives us little other option. Still, some people who have gone into an ICU have now been released from hospital. If it were my loved one who was struggling, I’d want them to have the same chance. It’s the notion that such a chance could be denied if the health care system becomes overwhelmed that we find unacceptable. Yes, it’s an emotional response but it’s extremely powerful.

I disagree that since most of us accept the risk of driving every day, we must therefore accept the risk of dying from COVID-19 in exchange for the need to make money. When I drive, I do so with the risks constantly front of mind and I work hard to control them, just like when I’m in command of my aircraft. Through training and experience I’ve come to know what those risks are and it’s a damn rare occasion when I don’t have a way out. With COVID-19, I don’t have the same ability to know where or when the threat might appear and I don’t know how bad it could get if I do get infected. Heck, I could be carrying it right now but because I’m asymptomatic, there’s no way for me to know that I am (or am not) a ticking time bomb for all whom I encounter. It’s the unknowns that are the source of our societal fear and no amount of logic is going to change it. Real evidence in the form of a proven treatment or vaccine, or a marked decline in new cases is what people will expect before they’re prepared to return to “normal”. That’s the one true roadblock to your wish that we just move on.

[pelmet]

We’ve resigned ourselves to the fact that deaths have and will continue to occur - the news cycle gives us little other option. Still, some people who have gone into an ICU have now been released from hospital. If it were my loved one who was struggling, I’d want them to have the same chance. It’s the notion that such a chance could be denied if the health care system becomes overwhelmed that we find unacceptable. Yes, it’s an emotional response but it’s extremely powerful.

I disagree that since most of us accept the risk of driving every day, we must therefore accept the risk of dying from COVID-19 in exchange for the need to make money. When I drive, I do so with the risks constantly front of mind and I work hard to control them, just like when I’m in command of my aircraft. Through training and experience I’ve come to know what those risks are and it’s a damn rare occasion when I don’t have a way out. With COVID-19, I don’t have the same ability to know where or when the threat might appear and I don’t know how bad it could get if I do get infected. Heck, I could be carrying it right now but because I’m asymptomatic, there’s no way for me to know that I am (or am not) a ticking time bomb for all whom I encounter. It’s the unknowns that are the source of our societal fear and no amount of logic is going to change it. Real evidence in the form of a proven treatment or vaccine, or a marked decline in new cases is what people will expect before they’re prepared to return to “normal”. That’s the one true roadblock to your wish that we just move on.

Thanks,

Whether we like it or not, we accept the accident rate as we do not disallow car driving. A marked decline in new cases under the current guidelines and then all of us going back to previous behaviour is in my opinion more dangerous. The virus will come back in the second wave. Better to get the young people immune now...by getting the virus. When emotion trump logic....it will be disastrous. That doesn't mean that my proposal is logical. It may not work. That is why I would like and appreciate intelligent criticism.

[rookiepilot]

Amateur disease and pandemic "experts".

Stick to flying.....please this is painful........Pelmet.

As far as ICU beds, IFLY, it's if they are all overwhelmed with Covid cases, heart attack and trauma victims simply won't get treated. That's the point, is to protect the hospital system from a greater collapse.

Unless we decide not to treat Covid patients at all, which seems to be implied in some circles...its a tough situation, I don't envy those making the decisions.

I'm not a cold SOB when talking about the value of life though, and valuing it less than my RRSP value.

That's just me, and obviously not everyone.

[ayseven]

Mr Pelmet,
Please stop being dangerous. There is no discussion. As some have already said, do what actual experts are suggesting, and face reality. You are proposing anarchy, and a situation that has been studied through modelling, and shown to be pure folly. I implore you to keep your thoughts to yourself. Please.

I do not mean to be rude, and appreciate your fears. We are all very sorry for those around us who are suffering. We are all going to be OK, if we do not deviate.

[dialdriver]

I'm taking direction from the public health officials, but thanks anyways....

[rxl]

https://apple.news/Al2ccq_j0T6a5d2_A8a13Fg
The Dutch have tried this idea ...
Hopefully this link works.

[Capt. Underpants]

https://apple.news/Al2ccq_j0T6a5d2_A8a13Fg
The Dutch have tried this idea ...
Hopefully this link works.

It doesn’t.

[rxl]

I guess you need Apple news. Let me try something else.