Leaving with a bond?

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Cessnaguy66
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Leaving with a bond?

Post by Cessnaguy66 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:36 pm

Hi guys,

I am thinking of working for a company that has an unusually long bond as it would be a good opportunity for the career. However I may not stay for the entire length of the bond due to location. (If I did leave however I would pay the remaining bond).

My question is for people who have paid their bond early (Not being chased down by the company). Does the company still resent you for it and ruin your references and also is it a red flag for your next employer or do they not really care? Thanks
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Liftvsdrag
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by Liftvsdrag » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:44 pm

They shouldn't resent you for it. If you leave and pay what you are due.. Good on you and it's fair game.
Also, don't forget the remaining of the bond you'll pay can be deducted from your tax;) I got a few 1000$ back that way.

Cheers and good luck.
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digits_
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by digits_ » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:02 pm

It all depends on why you are leaving and if your next company sees it as a valid reason. Some companies even pay out bonds from other companies.

What do you consider an unusually long bond? If it is extremely long, it might not be enforceable. Then again, why sign it if you know you will break it?
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by jakeandelwood » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:05 am

You are one up on the ethical scale from the company you would be leaving if you ask me. You are paying back the money that they spent training you. They should be praising you to your future employers.
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bcflyer
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by bcflyer » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:15 am

Let me see if I have this right. You know the company has a long bond, you know you won’t like the location and you are still thinking about taking the job? If you can’t make the commitment that they want don’t take the bloody job!! I’m sounding old but in my time if you made a commitment you followed through on it.I’m shocked that anyone would support you in screwing over a company.

This is the exact reason we have training bonds in the first place!!!
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Braun
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by Braun » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:14 am

bcflyer wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:15 am
Let me see if I have this right. You know the company has a long bond, you know you won’t like the location and you are still thinking about taking the job? If you can’t make the commitment that they want don’t take the bloody job!! I’m sounding old but in my time if you made a commitment you followed through on it.I’m shocked that anyone would support you in screwing over a company.

This is the exact reason we have training bonds in the first place!!!
If he pays the bond why would he not be respecting his commitment?
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altiplano
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:25 am

Agreement to stay for a period or pay a part of your training, and then doing exactly that, is fulfilling the agreement you made.

Screwing over is an individual agreeing to stay for a period on a handshake and then not fulfilling that. Or vive versa, an employer not providing the work conditions and terms of employment inferred and hanging onto someone solely because of the bond commitment.

If you don't like the terms of the bond, why not negotiate something else? It's a pilot's market...
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godsrcrazy
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by godsrcrazy » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:37 am

At minimum paying the pro rate on the Bond should be done. Unfortunatlye what most people don't understand is the bond is the cheap part of what the companies put into you. There is a lot of time spent showing you the ropes that doesn't get billed. Let alone the image to the aircraft while you learn to fly it. Personally if you don't plan to stay the term the don't waste this companies time and money.
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igorcanuck
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by igorcanuck » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:44 am

Does anyone know if it’s legal or at least “okayish” to offer to pay the company back in a few monthly payments? If I have to leave and can’t afford the entire amount but offer to pay it in monthly payments, is the company still allowed to sue me?
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altiplano
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:54 am

Employee turnover is the cost of doing business.

Want to retain employees? Hire better and offer something that makes them want to stay.

I'm my experience, most of the companies requiring bonds are marginal in the terms/schedule they offer and really don't "put in" much beyond the minimum required by regulation.
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digits_
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by digits_ » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:19 am

bcflyer wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:15 am
Let me see if I have this right. You know the company has a long bond, you know you won’t like the location and you are still thinking about taking the job? If you can’t make the commitment that they want don’t take the bloody job!! I’m sounding old but in my time if you made a commitment you followed through on it.I’m shocked that anyone would support you in screwing over a company.

This is the exact reason we have training bonds in the first place!!!
We have training bonds because companies are not increasing pay and schedule enough so they want to "force" people to stay.

Whie it might not be financially smart, if you pay out the bond as agreed, you are honoring the agreement. Companies might still not like it, but morally you aren't doing anything wrong. If anything, bonds make it easier to leave with a clear conscience.

There are plenty of companies out there with bonds, and the majority know why they have bonds: because they either don't advertise the job truthfully, because it is a sucky job, or because the bond is soo high they would actually prefer that the employee leaves right before the contract is up.

If your bond exceeds your annual salary, it is a sucky job.
If your bond is not pro rated, it is a sucky job.
If the company claims it costs soo much to train you, yet they don't pay type rated pilots they are hiring more, something is off.
If the company claims it costs soooo much to traing you, so a high bond is warranted, yet your pay raise after one year is 1%, they deserve that people leave.

It is a two way street. If a company puts a bond in place because they are afraid people will leave, then, well, guess what, people will leave. If a company increases wages and schedule because they are afraid people will leave, guess what, more people will stay.
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ReserveTank
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by ReserveTank » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:28 am

Why are you dealing with a bond in this hiring environment? At any rate, if something better comes along, jump ship. Paying the bond back doesn't protect you from a bad reference, by the way. If you weren't there long, don't use it as a reference. It's not as if you have PRIA, like down in the US where they track your commercial flying history. Companies, especially the Canadian 703 kind, generally like to ignore rules so that they can profit more. They use your license as toilet paper, so do the same with their bond. Good luck.
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:59 am

Once again, a thread seeking advice turns into a thread bashing small business's.

How many of you have quit your jobs to start your own business without any money or guarantees?

I guarantee if you had, see it differently.
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by digits_ » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:11 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:59 am
Once again, a thread seeking advice turns into a thread bashing small business's.

How many of you have quit your jobs to start your own business without any money or guarantees?

I guarantee if you had, see it differently.
Who is bashing small businesses?

What's wrong with ending a contract, written by the business, while fulfilling the conditions of said contract (eg leaving and paying out what is left)?
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:54 am

digits_ wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:11 am
rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:59 am
Once again, a thread seeking advice turns into a thread bashing small business's.

How many of you have quit your jobs to start your own business without any money or guarantees?

I guarantee if you had, see it differently.
Who is bashing small businesses?

What's wrong with ending a contract, written by the business, while fulfilling the conditions of said contract (eg leaving and paying out what is left)?
Nothing.

It's the editorials on business being scumbags for having bonds I don't like. Don't like it, go elsewhere. Or mop floors.

Sick of the small business bashing. Yeah it's a Canadian thing --------------
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by Squaretail » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:56 am

Does the company still resent you for it and ruin your references and also is it a red flag for your next employer or do they not really care?
Some will, some won't. Depends on the person in charge. If they do threaten to make life difficult for you its just them pissing in the wind. Good on you if you're intending to fulfill your side of an amicable departure.
Sick of the small business bashing.
You're too sensitive. There's no business bashing here. Partly because most places requiring bonds are hardly "small" businesses.
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by iflyforpie » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:21 pm

Honestly the worst enemy of small businesses are other small businesses. How many advertisements are there for “current PPC on type”?

Also.. I really don’t understand what’s so bad about low dividend tax, being able to write off everything, income splitting, having the customers pay your inputted tax, and having the employees pay your income tax remittances.
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by rookiepilot » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:26 pm

iflyforpie wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:21 pm
Honestly the worst enemy of small businesses are other small businesses. How many advertisements are there for “current PPC on type”?

Also.. I really don’t understand what’s so bad about low dividend tax, being able to write off everything, income splitting, having the customers pay your inputted tax, and having the employees pay your income tax remittances.
Easy money.

How many small business's fail in the first 2 years, again?
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by confusedalot » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:57 pm

Cut through the rhetoric guys.

First off, a training bond is an unfortunate legal scam, and worse still, our canadian legal system thinks it is all OK. Google it and you will find that judges think it is all fine. So much for the legal system in Canada. No protection for the average joe in this place.

So....you need to do your homework in the sense that if it is worth it. You are on your own.

Signed a bond 30 years ago for an outfit that I would not have left anyway. Hard to leave a good paying 747 job. No issue.

Signed a bond for a retirement job in a king air out of good will, got screwed over because I trusted them, turned out to be a big mistake. But no matter, 7 months and I walk.

Buyer beware is the moral of the story. The legal system will not help you.

Cheers
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by jakeandelwood » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:37 am

confusedalot wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:57 pm
Cut through the rhetoric guys.

First off, a training bond is an unfortunate legal scam, and worse still, our canadian legal system thinks it is all OK. Google it and you will find that judges think it is all fine. So much for the legal system in Canada. No protection for the average joe in this place.

So....you need to do your homework in the sense that if it is worth it. You are on your own.

Signed a bond 30 years ago for an outfit that I would not have left anyway. Hard to leave a good paying 747 job. No issue.

Signed a bond for a retirement job in a king air out of good will, got screwed over because I trusted them, turned out to be a big mistake. But no matter, 7 months and I walk.

Buyer beware is the moral of the story. The legal system will not help you.

Cheers
Excactly! Is there another trade or industry out there that has training bonds? I've never heard of one. If your company needs a bond to force people to stay, something needs to change to get people to stay, and that may involve money.
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by anofly » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:33 am

I know of a non aviation business that has a 2 year bond. Folks are signing... 30k$, not pro rated...
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by complexintentions » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:18 am

bcflyer wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:15 am
Let me see if I have this right. You know the company has a long bond, you know you won’t like the location and you are still thinking about taking the job? If you can’t make the commitment that they want don’t take the bloody job!! I’m sounding old but in my time if you made a commitment you followed through on it.I’m shocked that anyone would support you in screwing over a company.

This is the exact reason we have training bonds in the first place!!!
I'm not sure how two parties entering into a contract, and then both abiding by it, is somehow "screwing over a company"?

There are multiple reasons for training bonds, but principally it's a way for the company to try and ensure some ROI for the significant training costs involved. As rookiepilot correctly identifies, anyone who can't grasp that fundamental fact has probably never so much as attempted to start and run a business - of any size. The casual dismissal of the difficulties of running a small business, especially in a socialist country like Canada, would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. But that's another topic.

If anything, having things clearly defined in black and white terms, with the amounts of time and money expected laid out in a legal contract, is far preferable than massive misunderstandings and legal recriminations when ones employment situation inevitably changes.

confusedalot, not liking being bound to something, does not make it "a scam". I couldn't really tell what it was about your bond that makes you feel it is unfair, I assume there is more to the story?

To the OP, only you can judge what is "unusually long" for a bond, or if you can financially handle the penalty should you leave early. But if you truly intend to honour the terms and believe it to be good career opportunity, I see no reason to not take it. Of course it also follows that your performance during whatever time you spend there should be beyond reproach, and that you're respectful with how you handle any early departure - proper notice and so on. Always be a professional, and always try to have some empathy for your employer's needs not just your own. Your own success is linked to theirs, after all.

As to worrying about the new employer, if you present it correctly in the interview, they'd very likely be a) impressed that you abided by the terms of your previous contract and b) flattered that you felt the financial penalty of doing so was worth it to join THEIR company.

As in all things in life it's as much about how you do something as what you do...
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by godsrcrazy » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:28 am

You guys are all missing what Cessnaguy66 said. He wants to go to a company and commit to the terms of employment knowing he will not stay the term. This is exactly why bonds are in place. I will tell you what you want to hear. However as soon as i get my PPC and hours i am gone.

At minimum PPC should not be transferable. Most companies offering more money is due to stealing people with Current PPC's and saving money on type endoresments and PPC's.
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by AirFrame » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:45 am

godsrcrazy wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:28 am
You guys are all missing what Cessnaguy66 said. He wants to go to a company and commit to the terms of employment knowing he will not stay the term.
The term is only one of the terms of employment. The bond is another term of employment, that he intends to make use of in lieu of working the entire term. He *is* meeting the terms of his contract. I agree with the others though... If it's so great to work there that he won't want to leave, the company wouldn't need the bond.
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Re: Leaving with a bond?

Post by digits_ » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:48 am

godsrcrazy wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:28 am
You guys are all missing what Cessnaguy66 said. He wants to go to a company and commit to the terms of employment knowing he will not stay the term. This is exactly why bonds are in place. I will tell you what you want to hear. However as soon as i get my PPC and hours i am gone.

At minimum PPC should not be transferable. Most companies offering more money is due to stealing people with Current PPC's and saving money on type endoresments and PPC's.
Nobody is missing what Cessnaguy66 said. That's the beauty of bonds: you can do this with a clear conscience. If there was no bond, and you do the training, you leave after 3 months, then you are an asshole. If you do the same when there is a bond, and you pay out the bond, well, then that is perfectly ok. The company might not like it, but you have paid the "fine". If a company implements a bond, it becomes a financial transaction, and things like "honor","commitment" and "be a nice guy" become meaningless.

Although there are always exceptions, if a company makes you sign a bond, there is a big chance you'll be wanting to leave before that bond is up. If it was a good job, there would be no bond.

By the way, how many pilots do you think have claimed that flying a broken 206 is the reason they went into aviation and wanted to fly for a small 703 operation all their life, 24/7? Priorities change. Plans change. Thinking about that is commendable.
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