Snowbird replacement aircraft

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GoHomeLeg
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Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by GoHomeLeg »

Have there ever been discussions to replace the Tutor for the T-155.


How long will they continue using the Tutor?
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7ECA
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by 7ECA »

Yep, few times that I'm aware of. Mind you the Tutor is like a lot of equipment in the CAF inventory, getting long in the tooth; but with no "suitable" (read, Canadian made, or able to be produced in Canada under licence from the OEM) replacement available.

Last I heard, the Tutor is going to be staying on until 2030 - but will likely require "a bit" of work to keep them on strength until then.

Realistically, the most likely replacement (or the one that makes the most sense) would be the BAE Hawk; used by the Red Arrows, as well as a training aircraft for fast jet pilots.

The extremely lame replacement would be something like the Harvard II, or any other turboprop trainer. Or, we could just wait until 2050 (or which ever year is the latest target for the Hornet replacement) and give the Snowbirds some clapped out Hornets?
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valleyboy
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by valleyboy »

Pitts would be a treat
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flyinhigh
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by flyinhigh »

Under this government you will not see any replacement. I do agree though that the Hawk would be an amazing bird to use.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by Eric Janson »

The Aerobatics Team in the UAE (Al Fursan) uses the Aermacchi MB-339. Seems like a very capable Aerobatics platform.

They put on a great show - had the pleasure of watching them practice on multiple occasions. Too bad I couldn't take any pictures.

Videos on YouTube.
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BMLtech
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by BMLtech »

Word is that although geriatric, the tutor is the ideal platform for the snowbirds. Cheap, simple, easy to maintain, and a mountain of spare airframes and parts are held in reserve. I highly doubt it will be replaced anytime soon. Probably doesn’t even need modern avionics for a pure vfr operation.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by AuxBatOn »

While there are spare parts, airframe fatigue is an issue.

The Snowbirds’ Tutors are LPV capable. All they are missing is a Mode S/ADS-B capable transponder. They fly IFR more than they fly VFR. They need to get from A to B and, in a Tutor, you don’t get very far at 10,000 ft.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

Pull a Blue Angels fleet transition and swap the old CF188 airframes in. 9 Hornets zipping around the skies in red and white livery....🤑
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phillyfan
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by phillyfan »

I hereby declare the Snowbirds. "Non Essentials" and sentence them to House Arrest, where they can collect Trudeau's meager $2000 a month welfare.
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frosti
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by frosti »

100% it will be jet, you can bet the RCAF will fight tooth and nail to avoid props, just isn't the same.

Buy a fleet of Boeing T-7 Red Hawks to replace the Hawks, allocate 15-20 to the Snowbirds. Easy transition for students who don't want fighters or a Cold Lake/Bagotville posting, huge part supply stock, familiar F404 engine for techs. The Tutor does its job well because it's slow and can stay at show center for the whole performance. Blue Angels, Thunderbirds and even the Red Arrows - do a loud pass and gone for 3-5 minutes to reset for another. T-7 would likely have the same issue, but there is nothing modern out there, to my knowledge, that can have a good cruise range while able to fly low and slow in front of crowds. CF-18 snowbirds aren't happening, there was an article a while back mentioning this, it would cost roughly 9x more to operate them in snowbirds roles. Glass cockpits are coming for the Tutors in a quasi-modern avionic suit, just need to find a suitable engine replacement and they'd fly the thing to 2050 if they could.
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tailgunner
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by tailgunner »

The Hawk trainers have been identified as having a nearing shelf life.
I believe that once the F35 is selected as the F18 replacement again, there will be an examination of the lead in training aircraft. The Hawk apparently has some issues replicating what some Airforces would like to see regarding 5 Gen training.
I predict that the next Snowbird aircraft will be the TX trainer from Boeing that will be equipping the USAF training fleet.
My two Cents.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by jakeandelwood »

Well let's just hope someone like Deifenbaker isn't running the country when the time comes to make a decision. A fleet of 150 Aerobats might look good in the Snowbird paint scheme though.
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linecrew
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by linecrew »

I think trying to use the Hawks or Harvard IIs might be difficult because the somewhat unusual operating agreement they were acquired under. They are owned by the government but leased to a third party, CAE, for the NFTC program.
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2R
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by 2R »

Cessna Scorpion small cheap twin that can be used for SAR and is cheap . Did I mention it was cheap :)

Maybe Viking could build them under licence . Might even make a few for export for poor countries that cannot afford to provide their military with the tools required to do the Job :)
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Blakey
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by Blakey »

Go big or go home. By 9 of these and watch the mouths drop open. Imagine a 9=plane roll! Bonus capability in the off season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDE3Dp3LGZg
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Human Factor
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by Human Factor »

I once thought that the mothballed CF-5s would have made an excellent Tutor replacement for the Snowbirds but then it's been a couple of decades since then...
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RippleRock
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by RippleRock »

Human Factor wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:44 pm
I once thought that the mothballed CF-5s would have made an excellent Tutor replacement for the Snowbirds but then it's been a couple of decades since then...
Thinking the same thing. The CF-5 was actually a cool looking, sleek "mach capable" machine, unlike the tubby "Cessna-like" Tudor. Given how long the Government has taken to replace our 40 year old Hornets, I won't be even be thinking about holding my breath for a Tudor replacement.

The Tudor is --so-- Canadian. It nicely symbolizes the "ancientness" of our frontline fighter fleet on the world stage. We are the "thrift" recyclers and endless maintainers of --insignificant numbers of ancient junk--.

Not surprised no one takes our forces seriously. :roll:
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by valleyboy »

The Tudor is --so-- Canadian. It nicely symbolizes the "ancientness" of our frontline fighter fleet on the world stage. We are the "thrift" recyclers and endless maintainers of --insignificant numbers of ancient junk--.
I have to agree, in this generation of bottom line and wanting the "big bucks" I think military demonstration teams are dreams of years gone by. The main motivation to create a team was to sell the armed forces as a career, it's not like that anymore. Young pilots entering the industry is money oriented and the first question now is how much do you pay. They also want to establish their seniority so going to the military for the large part is not going to fill their expectations and in fact be a liability due to loss of seniority.

The canadian military has been going through a complete identity crisis brought on by the merge of the services, with budget cuts and political BS they have been neutered to the point of embarrassment. This is not a slight towards the members. They are for the most part brave and dedicated people who have been given a "sow's ear" and expected to produce a "silk purse" . Time to regroup and move into the 21st century.

I know the snowbirds have taken on some form of mystical canadiana persona but they need to leave or go big and that likely won't ever happen.
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by co-joe »

My vote is for the F16. 20 Million bucks, 1 engine, who knows, we might end up liking them after all.
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Human Factor
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by Human Factor »

Why should the Snowbirds have better equipment than the mainline air force?
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iflyforpie
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by iflyforpie »

valleyboy wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 7:04 am
The Tudor is --so-- Canadian. It nicely symbolizes the "ancientness" of our frontline fighter fleet on the world stage. We are the "thrift" recyclers and endless maintainers of --insignificant numbers of ancient junk--.
I have to agree, in this generation of bottom line and wanting the "big bucks" I think military demonstration teams are dreams of years gone by. The main motivation to create a team was to sell the armed forces as a career, it's not like that anymore. Young pilots entering the industry is money oriented and the first question now is how much do you pay. They also want to establish their seniority so going to the military for the large part is not going to fill their expectations and in fact be a liability due to loss of seniority.
Very true.

When I was growing up there was an aura of mystery and excitement around anything to do with aviation. Now all you have to do is peruse instagram or YouTube to see everything and read forums to get the low down.

A friend of mine was doing his Group 1 initial at Pro and there was an ex-Hornet driver pretty much beside himself trying to figure out how to convert everything as fast as possible because he needed to be at AC mainline yesterday. If he made it he’s probably getting a heavy dose of what the industry is like right now.. but at least doing a bit better than his fellow AC pilots.

But yeah.. see the Snowbirds, they are very nice, but they don’t really inspire people to join up. Especially in this modern world where it isn’t sitting in a base in Germany waiting for WWIII that probably isn’t going to happen... but following the Americans on another jingoistic crusade to the sandbox to accomplish precisely nothing.

Ultimately it will be the Canadian Public who will decide. I’m sure that there is enough popular support that any disbandment of the team would never happen.
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DadoBlade
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by DadoBlade »

RippleRock wrote: "The Tudor is --so-- Canadian" May I gently remind him The Tudor period occurred between 1485 and 1603 in England and Wales. Tudor was also an architectural style that developed in England between 1485 and 1558.

The Tutor period however, started in Canada in the early 1960's.

Canadair did propose a replacement for the Tutor in the late 1960's. I think it was a tandem-seat swept wing design. A resin scale-model of the design still exists, somewhere.. The design resembled the Russian KB SAT SR-10 jet trainer.

The USAF retired the twin-engine Cessna T-37 in 2009.
The RAF retired the single-engine BAC Jet Provost in 1993.
Image

The RCAF also operated six AVRO Tutors from the early 1930's to 1940:
Image
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Last edited by DadoBlade on Fri May 15, 2020 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

DadoBlade
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by DadoBlade »

Total thread drift, but there was indeed an aircraft named Tudor. A four-engine pressurised, taildragging airliner developed by AVRO. Based on the wing and undercarriage from the AVRO Lincoln bomber, the Tudor was produced from 1945 to 1949. Only 38 were produced, but with nine variants. BOAC cancelled its order for Tudors in 1947, instead taking delivery of 22 Canadair North Stars which they renamed C-4 Argonauts, and used them extensively between 1949 and 1960.

The sole Canadian operator of the AVRO Tudor, Lome Airways Limited, operated the type V on DEW Line support missions from 1953 to 1959. Here is CF-FCY:

Image
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valleyboy
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by valleyboy »

Ironic this thread has become a little more relevant today.
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snowcrest
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Re: Snowbird replacement aircraft

Post by snowcrest »

The timing of this thread is extremely eerie.
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