P180 job ad: "don't apply"

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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by ahramin »

shimmydampner wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:04 pm
ahramin wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:53 am Agreed. But the notion of a flight department manager so insecure in their capabilities that they want to actively discourage anyone with more experience than them from applying is equally amusing.
Really? Your takeaway from the caveat precluding recently laid off airline pilots from applying was that it's due to ops manager insecurities about the mad skills of all those laid off 2500 hour copilots?
It's not my takeaway, it's my experience. I know nothing of this particular ops manager.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by shimmydampner »

So, at some point when you were laid off, you were told not to apply on a job, or maybe you were turned down for a job and the reason you were given is because you had more experience than a manager who felt insecure about that fact? But it wasn't this operator. Strange story, but I fail to see its relevance here.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by fur1ough »

digits_ wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:26 pm
fur1ough wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:31 pm With all that said, and I do somewhat agree regarding some of those people who felt they were somehow "better" than others by working at the connectors and got their ML jobs... I would still rather have my seniority number and no job for the next two years than a 703/704 job and no ML seniority.

I can make do financially and have enough back up options outside of aviation that I'm not worried. I know others may not, especially those who have large financial obligations but in 3+ years they will all still be better off by having their number at AC or WJ. Pilots are pretty resilient and I know most will manage to weather the storm.
Posts in other topics seem to hint recall rights are limited in time. Is that incorrect?
You can delay recall until all juniors are back on property. At which point you can then ask for an LOA. In the past the company has been more than willing to work with people who have a few months left or even a year on a contract elsewhere. They aren't going to screw you over, based on historical data.

If a junior pilot got a two year bond on a job as of this summer, it's unlikely they will be back by fall/spring 2022 anyways. Since recalls go in reverse. And then if your number comes up a few months LOA to finish up your contract likely won't be an issue.

Even now if you haven't been laid off yet but expect it, you can take up to a 3 year LOA until Sept 2023. So if someone found a job they liked and they wanted a 2-3 year commitment it really shouldn't be an issue.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by ahramin »

shimmydampner wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:34 pm So, at some point when you were laid off, you were told not to apply on a job, or maybe you were turned down for a job and the reason you were given is because you had more experience than a manager who felt insecure about that fact? But it wasn't this operator. Strange story, but I fail to see its relevance here.
Not quite. I'm a consultant for corporate flight operations. I've seen this attitude more often than not, and given a job posting that specifically wants to avoid hiring a highly experienced pilot who would be there for two years and then leave, it seems quite possible that it is the case. Not saying it is the case, but that's how it looks to me based on my experience supporting dozens of corporate flight departments over a decade.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by digits_ »

fur1ough wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:42 pm
digits_ wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:26 pm
fur1ough wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:31 pm With all that said, and I do somewhat agree regarding some of those people who felt they were somehow "better" than others by working at the connectors and got their ML jobs... I would still rather have my seniority number and no job for the next two years than a 703/704 job and no ML seniority.

I can make do financially and have enough back up options outside of aviation that I'm not worried. I know others may not, especially those who have large financial obligations but in 3+ years they will all still be better off by having their number at AC or WJ. Pilots are pretty resilient and I know most will manage to weather the storm.
Posts in other topics seem to hint recall rights are limited in time. Is that incorrect?
You can delay recall until all juniors are back on property. At which point you can then ask for an LOA. In the past the company has been more than willing to work with people who have a few months left or even a year on a contract elsewhere. They aren't going to screw you over, based on historical data.

If a junior pilot got a two year bond on a job as of this summer, it's unlikely they will be back by fall/spring 2022 anyways. Since recalls go in reverse. And then if your number comes up a few months LOA to finish up your contract likely won't be an issue.

Even now if you haven't been laid off yet but expect it, you can take up to a 3 year LOA until Sept 2023. So if someone found a job they liked and they wanted a 2-3 year commitment it really shouldn't be an issue.
If it takes, let's say 6 years, before all the laid off people are back at their old jobs, then during those 6 years the company is not allowed to hire other pilots, they *have* to rehire the laid off people. Is that correct? I was told there was some kind of time limit on those things. But the source wasn't too trustworthy.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by garfield »

Yes there is a time limit, but it depends on the company (collective agreement).
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by fur1ough »

At AC, all forloughed pilots must be recalled before any new hires are given jobs.

There is no limit on time. I believe WestJet is 10 years?
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by shimmydampner »

ahramin wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:31 am Not quite. I'm a consultant for corporate flight operations. I've seen this attitude more often than not, and given a job posting that specifically wants to avoid hiring a highly experienced pilot who would be there for two years and then leave, it seems quite possible that it is the case. Not saying it is the case, but that's how it looks to me based on my experience supporting dozens of corporate flight departments over a decade.
Ah, I see. Interesting. So would you say it's based on personal insecurities about relative experience, or perceptions about potential attitudes that might be brought into the flight department? I would imagine there are significant differences in how corporate versus airlines operate and what is expected of the flight crews.
At any rate, I would think that the majority of those laid off currently are not "highly experienced" and I took it to mean that they don't want to hire and train someone who will end up bailing on them with little notice when the recall comes, which I think is a fair concern.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by fur1ough »

You'd be surprised. Lots of people laid off right now with 5000+ hours, 705 Captain time, 737 Captain time (new hire AC pilots from Sunwing or WJ).

Lots of new hires at AC from Jazz with thousands of hours and Captain experience.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by ahramin »

shimmydampner wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:33 amAh, I see. Interesting. So would you say it's based on personal insecurities about relative experience, or perceptions about potential attitudes that might be brought into the flight department? I would imagine there are significant differences in how corporate versus airlines operate and what is expected of the flight crews.
At any rate, I would think that the majority of those laid off currently are not "highly experienced" and I took it to mean that they don't want to hire and train someone who will end up bailing on them with little notice when the recall comes, which I think is a fair concern.
To quote one ops manager "We don't want someone putting their leg up all over the place". In my opinion it comes down to ego. Many pilots invest too much of their identity into being pilots, then into being above average pilots, then into being amazing pilots. By the time someone like this ends up in charge of a flight department, being the top dog in their own scrap yard is very much part of their self worth. I like the way Chris Hadfield put it in his book when he said he always wanted to be a test pilot and astronaut, but his identity didn't depend on him becoming those things. He was always going to be happy being Chris Hadfield regardless of whether or not those particular goals were achieved. I'm sure it's easy for someone with this attitude learn or take in pointers from anyone around them. On the other hand someone whose identity is wrapped up in being the top pilot in the company can have a very tough time accepting advice from a pilot that is supposed to be lower down on the food chain since it looks like an attack on their position, and therefore on them.

In addition to the personality issues, corporate flight departments tend not to have nearly the training or operational resources that airlines have. Airlines have performance engineers, technical pilots, SOPs and training materials written by the actual companies that built their airplanes, and dedicated training departments. Not to mention the pilots tend to stay around for decades rather than years. Corporate flight departments just don't have this level of expertise at their fingertips and the pilot group tends to have to figure everything out on their own. It makes for self reliant pilots who are used to problem solving, but it also makes for pilots who have only figured out what they have figured out. When you bring in someone from the outside who has formal training in a bunch of areas that the corporate pilots have just been muddling along in, it can seem intimidating.

Personally, under the current circumstances the only pilot I would consider for a corporate flight department would be an experienced airline pilot who wants to work corporate for a few years while waiting for the airline side to improve. You get a far more experienced pilot than you would otherwise be able to afford, and can take advantage of that experience to fill in the little gaps that you didn't know exist. Obviously you don't take the first one to come along. You find the one that truly wants the position you are offering and you contract them for an agreed period. I'm sure the company in question isn't interested in 200 hour commercial pilots either, but they aren't going out of their way to make sure they know they aren't welcome. I mean if you are hiring right now it's raining soup and instead of getting a bucket and running outside, this company is worried that there might be an oversize chunk of carrot in there somewhere so they don't want any.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

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I just like saying Piaggio , reminds me of Rome , Vespa scooters and weaving through traffic listening to the opera of tooting Fiats .
Nicest Piaggio I saw was a Piaggio Royal , a small amphibious flying boat it looked great ,and sounded really nice .
Piaggio, I think that will be my word for the rest of the day :)

Mi Scusi ,Piaggio
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by Phlyer »

ahramin wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:34 pm
shimmydampner wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:33 amAh, I see. Interesting. So would you say it's based on personal insecurities about relative experience, or perceptions about potential attitudes that might be brought into the flight department? I would imagine there are significant differences in how corporate versus airlines operate and what is expected of the flight crews.
At any rate, I would think that the majority of those laid off currently are not "highly experienced" and I took it to mean that they don't want to hire and train someone who will end up bailing on them with little notice when the recall comes, which I think is a fair concern.
To quote one ops manager "We don't want someone putting their leg up all over the place". In my opinion it comes down to ego. Many pilots invest too much of their identity into being pilots, then into being above average pilots, then into being amazing pilots. By the time someone like this ends up in charge of a flight department, being the top dog in their own scrap yard is very much part of their self worth. I like the way Chris Hadfield put it in his book when he said he always wanted to be a test pilot and astronaut, but his identity didn't depend on him becoming those things. He was always going to be happy being Chris Hadfield regardless of whether or not those particular goals were achieved. I'm sure it's easy for someone with this attitude learn or take in pointers from anyone around them. On the other hand someone whose identity is wrapped up in being the top pilot in the company can have a very tough time accepting advice from a pilot that is supposed to be lower down on the food chain since it looks like an attack on their position, and therefore on them.

In addition to the personality issues, corporate flight departments tend not to have nearly the training or operational resources that airlines have. Airlines have performance engineers, technical pilots, SOPs and training materials written by the actual companies that built their airplanes, and dedicated training departments. Not to mention the pilots tend to stay around for decades rather than years. Corporate flight departments just don't have this level of expertise at their fingertips and the pilot group tends to have to figure everything out on their own. It makes for self reliant pilots who are used to problem solving, but it also makes for pilots who have only figured out what they have figured out. When you bring in someone from the outside who has formal training in a bunch of areas that the corporate pilots have just been muddling along in, it can seem intimidating.

Personally, under the current circumstances the only pilot I would consider for a corporate flight department would be an experienced airline pilot who wants to work corporate for a few years while waiting for the airline side to improve. You get a far more experienced pilot than you would otherwise be able to afford, and can take advantage of that experience to fill in the little gaps that you didn't know exist. Obviously you don't take the first one to come along. You find the one that truly wants the position you are offering and you contract them for an agreed period. I'm sure the company in question isn't interested in 200 hour commercial pilots either, but they aren't going out of their way to make sure they know they aren't welcome. I mean if you are hiring right now it's raining soup and instead of getting a bucket and running outside, this company is worried that there might be an oversize chunk of carrot in there somewhere so they don't want any.
Some wise words here
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by AntiNakedMan »

ahramin wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:34 pm I mean if you are hiring right now it's raining soup and instead of getting a bucket and running outside, this company is worried that there might be an oversize chunk of carrot in there somewhere so they don't want any.
Very wise points about what a wise strategy could be for this company, and thanks for answering the age old question “how many posts on a thread before we get a penis size metaphor”.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by rigpiggy »

ahramin wrote: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:53 am
shimmydampner wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:37 pm The notion of laid off airline pilots scoffing at a job ad on the one hand, while out of the other side of their mouths they whinge about being excluded from applying for said job, is rather amusing.
Agreed. But the notion of a flight department manager so insecure in their capabilities that they want to actively discourage anyone with more experience than them from applying is equally amusing.
Actually, you will pretty much be the flight department manager. They want someone independent who can work without a dispatch, load control, customs department at there beck and call
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by valleyboy »

I fail to see the issue - sounds like a great gig - single pilot is just a pleasure. If I wasn't retired and looking I would certainly apply. I find usually things are what you make them.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by Dh8Classic »

ahramin wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:34 pm
shimmydampner wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:33 amAh, I see. Interesting. So would you say it's based on personal insecurities about relative experience, or perceptions about potential attitudes that might be brought into the flight department? I would imagine there are significant differences in how corporate versus airlines operate and what is expected of the flight crews.
At any rate, I would think that the majority of those laid off currently are not "highly experienced" and I took it to mean that they don't want to hire and train someone who will end up bailing on them with little notice when the recall comes, which I think is a fair concern.
To quote one ops manager "We don't want someone putting their leg up all over the place". In my opinion it comes down to ego. Many pilots invest too much of their identity into being pilots, then into being above average pilots, then into being amazing pilots. By the time someone like this ends up in charge of a flight department, being the top dog in their own scrap yard is very much part of their self worth. I like the way Chris Hadfield put it in his book when he said he always wanted to be a test pilot and astronaut, but his identity didn't depend on him becoming those things. He was always going to be happy being Chris Hadfield regardless of whether or not those particular goals were achieved. I'm sure it's easy for someone with this attitude learn or take in pointers from anyone around them. On the other hand someone whose identity is wrapped up in being the top pilot in the company can have a very tough time accepting advice from a pilot that is supposed to be lower down on the food chain since it looks like an attack on their position, and therefore on them.

In addition to the personality issues, corporate flight departments tend not to have nearly the training or operational resources that airlines have. Airlines have performance engineers, technical pilots, SOPs and training materials written by the actual companies that built their airplanes, and dedicated training departments. Not to mention the pilots tend to stay around for decades rather than years. Corporate flight departments just don't have this level of expertise at their fingertips and the pilot group tends to have to figure everything out on their own. It makes for self reliant pilots who are used to problem solving, but it also makes for pilots who have only figured out what they have figured out. When you bring in someone from the outside who has formal training in a bunch of areas that the corporate pilots have just been muddling along in, it can seem intimidating.

Personally, under the current circumstances the only pilot I would consider for a corporate flight department would be an experienced airline pilot who wants to work corporate for a few years while waiting for the airline side to improve. You get a far more experienced pilot than you would otherwise be able to afford, and can take advantage of that experience to fill in the little gaps that you didn't know exist. Obviously you don't take the first one to come along. You find the one that truly wants the position you are offering and you contract them for an agreed period. I'm sure the company in question isn't interested in 200 hour commercial pilots either, but they aren't going out of their way to make sure they know they aren't welcome. I mean if you are hiring right now it's raining soup and instead of getting a bucket and running outside, this company is worried that there might be an oversize chunk of carrot in there somewhere so they don't want any.
From strictly an experience point of view, I would think that the early retirement guy might be best if you want airline experience. It is true that they could jump to the new start-up as a captain or soon to be captain but at least they don't have the need to get back to the mainline mentality that the laid off pilot has. It can even be small things such as Zed tickets which the retired guy already has that will draw away the laid off guy sooner.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by fur1ough »

Furloughed pilots at AC have all their passes for at least a year. FYI.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by jakeandelwood »

"Please email application with your compensation package expectations to the email address above."

I find the above line the most hilarious part of that job ad, i guess its a good way to weed out applicants. is bidding on jobs normal? i could see that being the case if i was a paving company and they wanted their parking lot re-surfaced.
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by rigpiggy »

regardless, don't like it....don't apply
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Re: P180 job ad: "don't apply"

Post by jakeandelwood »

I do want to apply, I'm just having trouble coming up with a number figure to put down. If I go to high they will toss my resume, to low and ill be stuck making squat, maybe i'll put "enough money so I'll stick around and make a career out of working for you". It sounds like that's what they want from the employee they seek anyway.
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