250hr Pilot Advice

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flyindutchman1996
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250hr Pilot Advice

Post by flyindutchman1996 »

Hey all,
I’m a low time pilot(fresh CPL & Group 1 IFR) trying to land that first gig. Obviously with everything that’s happened it won’t be easy but was wondering if I could get some advice as to trying to get that first job whether it be on the ramp, dispatch, or straight to flight line, I would really appreciate some tips for standing out to potential employers.
Thanks a lot!

P.S. Please only comment if you actually have advice to give. I don’t want all the “no one will find a job for 10 years” comments
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Last edited by flyindutchman1996 on Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
photofly
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by photofly »

not gonna be
Brush up your grammar?
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rookiepilot
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by rookiepilot »

Your last sentence actually ticks me off, so I'll decline to answer.

This is a blog full of highly experienced pilots, and others like me, relatively low time pilots but an ocean of life, career, and business experience.

A lot of these high timers don't have a job right now, be nice if you acknowledged that, too.

It's YOUR job as one starting out, to sift through the chaff and glean whatever advice you find useful.

It's not any particular poster's job to comment in such a way with their advice, to ensure you're not offended and need to run to your safe place.

I think, you need to think about your attitude before seeking advice.

Sincerely.

Don't like it? Leave. No one owes you a thing.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

/\ + 1
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by digits_ »

Maybe we can speed things up a bit. What do you want the advice to be? That way are sure you'll like it!
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Bede
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by Bede »

Welcome to aviation. Guys will correct your grammar, attack you for being entitled and not "paying your dues", attack you for "lowering the bar", not respecting your elders, etc.

Anyways, to answer your question, get a job anywhere there are pilots- fuel planes, work a ticket counter, whatever. Make friends with those who are flying and develop a reputation as a reliable, honest guy who doesn't have an attitude. Show humility. Your job offers will flow from your reputation and contacts. I have had far more unsolicited job offers than one's that I applied for.

You're right, things are tough right now, but it will turn around in a few years.

Good luck!
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by Zaibatsu »

No one will find a job for ten years.
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porcsord
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by porcsord »

Take this for what you paid for it, and understand that I agree with rookiepilot.

I'm certainly not the most experienced person on this board, but I wouldn't say I'm a junior. I've flown a variety of types, in a variety of environments. The thing that I am most proud about in my career is that EVERY company I have ever worked for has either hired me back or offered to do so.

But porcsord, you seem like a real asshole.

True. But I use this forum to vent my inner asshole. In person I'm more of a See You Next Tuesday.

As for my advice on how to stand out. Don't try to stand out. You're not special. Flood the market with well formatted resumes and cover letters. Take the time to tailor each cover letter to the company. This takes time. Don't address "Sir or Madame" address the person who will be making the decision to hire you. Take the time to research who that is. This takes time. Your resume should be 1 page, the cover letter should also be 1 page. Send them as a PDF. There should be no pictures, graphics, complex fonts. Use Arial. or Helvetica if you're feeling frisky. New Times Roman is also good. Your resume and letter should be grammatically correct, this means sending to other people to review before submitting it. This also takes time. I hope you're noticing a trend here. Take the time to do everything leading up to a potential interview well, and that starts with the resume and cover letter.

If you get an interview, study that company. What do they fly, where do they fly, who do they fly. Know how much is a reasonable amount to make. Know the cost of living where they are based. Know if you can actually afford the job. When the interview comes, have well researched and practical questions for the interviewer. Ask them. Make sure it's a place you actually want to work as opposed to "I will do literally anything for hours".

If you get an offer and there is a commitment (there will be in this market, with your experience), be ready to honor it. Whether it's a handshake or a bond, one year or two, be ready to stick it out even if "your dream job" comes up when you're committed. Guess what, unless you are in the .0001% it's not actually your dream job. That job doesn't come for thousands of hours of experience. Yah, if you don't honor your handshake, you'll probably still eventually make it to AC or WS, but you're a real dickhead. The industry is small, and word spreads fast.

Finally, when you get to that first job, don't think because you have a Seneca Aviation jacket that you know everything about the industry, flying, air laws, safety, techniques... you don't. You don't know anything and act like it. Be a sponge. Learn, ask questions and always seek to improve. Show up to work early, with a smile. When the schedule changes, don't get mad or pissed off, shit happens a lot in this industry, learn to roll with the punches. When it's appropriate go the extra mile and help out, if a plane needs a wash, wash it... and for fucks sake don't brag about washing an airplane to your manager. Take pride in your job, and it will get noticed. Don't assume you're entitled to be a captain at XXXX hours or years, when you're ready, it will happen. Enjoy the ride, don't rush to the airlines, when you're ready to retire as a captain on a 777, you won't be telling your F/O about your time at AC, you'll be regaling them with stories of the north, of floats, of navajo's and norsemen, of former colleagues, of surviving on KD. These are the memories you'll recall the fondest.

To sum up this rather long drunken rant. Don't be an asshole, take pride in everything you do, and eventually it will work out. Even if you are an asshole.

PS
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rookiepilot
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by rookiepilot »

Bede wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:12 pm
guy who doesn't have an attitude. Show humility.

Good luck!
That starts from the first impression, and I did not see this in the post, which is why I responded the way I did.

Maybe a lesson will be learned.

I don't do attitude with people who ask for my help, which has been many individuals over the years.

When I ask for advice on a new venture, (which, one is currently happening) I don't ask with attitude.

I don't know your policy Bede.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
photofly
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by photofly »

Bede wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:12 pm . Guys will correct your grammar,
I didn't actually correct his grammar. I just suggested he improve it. If I'd corrected it I would have said "gonna" isn't part of English, and he should have used the words "going to". But I didn't.
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flyindutchman1996
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by flyindutchman1996 »

Thanks everyone. Genuinely did not mean to give off that impression. I appreciate all the advice though
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gtappl
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by gtappl »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:47 pm Your last sentence actually ticks me off, so I'll decline to answer.

This is a blog full of highly experienced pilots, and others like me, relatively low time pilots but an ocean of life, career, and business experience.

A lot of these high timers don't have a job right now, be nice if you acknowledged that, too.

It's YOUR job as one starting out, to sift through the chaff and glean whatever advice you find useful.

It's not any particular poster's job to comment in such a way with their advice, to ensure you're not offended and need to run to your safe place.

I think, you need to think about your attitude before seeking advice.

Sincerely.

Don't like it? Leave. No one owes you a thing.
Why give someone advice they said not to? He's just giving the courtesy to the doom and gloom people to save their effort.
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mixturerich
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by mixturerich »

porcsord wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:33 pm Take this for what you paid for it, and understand that I agree with rookiepilot.

I'm certainly not the most experienced person on this board, but I wouldn't say I'm a junior. I've flown a variety of types, in a variety of environments. The thing that I am most proud about in my career is that EVERY company I have ever worked for has either hired me back or offered to do so.

But porcsord, you seem like a real asshole.

True. But I use this forum to vent my inner asshole. In person I'm more of a See You Next Tuesday.

As for my advice on how to stand out. Don't try to stand out. You're not special. Flood the market with well formatted resumes and cover letters. Take the time to tailor each cover letter to the company. This takes time. Don't address "Sir or Madame" address the person who will be making the decision to hire you. Take the time to research who that is. This takes time. Your resume should be 1 page, the cover letter should also be 1 page. Send them as a PDF. There should be no pictures, graphics, complex fonts. Use Arial. or Helvetica if you're feeling frisky. New Times Roman is also good. Your resume and letter should be grammatically correct, this means sending to other people to review before submitting it. This also takes time. I hope you're noticing a trend here. Take the time to do everything leading up to a potential interview well, and that starts with the resume and cover letter.

If you get an interview, study that company. What do they fly, where do they fly, who do they fly. Know how much is a reasonable amount to make. Know the cost of living where they are based. Know if you can actually afford the job. When the interview comes, have well researched and practical questions for the interviewer. Ask them. Make sure it's a place you actually want to work as opposed to "I will do literally anything for hours".

If you get an offer and there is a commitment (there will be in this market, with your experience), be ready to honor it. Whether it's a handshake or a bond, one year or two, be ready to stick it out even if "your dream job" comes up when you're committed. Guess what, unless you are in the .0001% it's not actually your dream job. That job doesn't come for thousands of hours of experience. Yah, if you don't honor your handshake, you'll probably still eventually make it to AC or WS, but you're a real dickhead. The industry is small, and word spreads fast.

Finally, when you get to that first job, don't think because you have a Seneca Aviation jacket that you know everything about the industry, flying, air laws, safety, techniques... you don't. You don't know anything and act like it. Be a sponge. Learn, ask questions and always seek to improve. Show up to work early, with a smile. When the schedule changes, don't get mad or pissed off, shit happens a lot in this industry, learn to roll with the punches. When it's appropriate go the extra mile and help out, if a plane needs a wash, wash it... and for fucks sake don't brag about washing an airplane to your manager. Take pride in your job, and it will get noticed. Don't assume you're entitled to be a captain at XXXX hours or years, when you're ready, it will happen. Enjoy the ride, don't rush to the airlines, when you're ready to retire as a captain on a 777, you won't be telling your F/O about your time at AC, you'll be regaling them with stories of the north, of floats, of navajo's and norsemen, of former colleagues, of surviving on KD. These are the memories you'll recall the fondest.

To sum up this rather long drunken rant. Don't be an asshole, take pride in everything you do, and eventually it will work out. Even if you are an asshole.

PS
+1

From someone who did the cross country road trip, worked the ramp at a few different places, and literally dug fucking holes trying to get a flight line position, porcsord’s advice is comprehensive and totally spot on. I wouldn’t even read anyone else’s post. He’s said pretty much everything you need to know.

That said, when I started out it was looking like three years of throwing bags and loading pop and chips in -40C in the winter, and covered in mosquitoes in the summer. Turned out a lot quicker, but seriously, be prepared for that. Especially in these trying times. It’s totally worth it in the end if you really really love flying airplanes. Stick it out and leave your compadres that give up in the dust. You’ve invested so much money into this career after all.
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by shimmydampner »

photofly wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:40 pm
Bede wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:12 pm . Guys will correct your grammar,
I didn't actually correct his grammar. I just suggested he improve it. If I'd corrected it I would have said "gonna" isn't part of English, and he should have used the words "going to". But I didn't.
It most definitely is part of English and has been since the early 1800s. It's even in the English dictionary.
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photofly
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by photofly »

shimmydampner wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:05 pm
photofly wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:40 pm
Bede wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:12 pm . Guys will correct your grammar,
I didn't actually correct his grammar. I just suggested he improve it. If I'd corrected it I would have said "gonna" isn't part of English, and he should have used the words "going to". But I didn't.
It most definitely is part of English and has been since the early 1800s. It's even in the English dictionary.
It’s not in Nelson’s Canadian Dictionary of the English Language, which has 150,000 entries:
22267978-4E81-4216-A416-B85054316B4A.jpeg
22267978-4E81-4216-A416-B85054316B4A.jpeg (198.06 KiB) Viewed 2231 times
I’m going to suggest that unless the OP wants to come across like a dweeb who wears his baseball cap backwards, he write better English. When it comes to getting a job, a resume and cover letter might be important. Do you think language like that gives a good impression, or not?
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by shimmydampner »

I was not suggesting that it's proper, formal English to be used in a professional document. It is however, demonstrably "part of English" according to Merriam-Webster and has been a colloquialism since at least 1806. It's also in the Oxford English dictionary. But what do I know? I'm just a guy who sometimes wears his baseball cap backwards and thinks that if you choose to be pedantic instead of helpful, you should at least be accurate.
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by Vsquared »

photofly wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:02 am
shimmydampner wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:05 pm
photofly wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:40 pm
I didn't actually correct his grammar. I just suggested he improve it. If I'd corrected it I would have said "gonna" isn't part of English, and he should have used the words "going to". But I didn't.
It most definitely is part of English and has been since the early 1800s. It's even in the English dictionary.
It’s not in Nelson’s Canadian Dictionary of the English Language, which has 150,000 entries:
22267978-4E81-4216-A416-B85054316B4A.jpeg
I’m going to suggest that unless the OP wants to come across like a dweeb who wears his baseball cap backwards, he write better English. When it comes to getting a job, a resume and cover letter might be important. Do you think language like that gives a good impression, or not?
What is it to you if he doesn't use correct grammar, or wears a hat backwards ? Quit being a salty, judgmental, POS. Ever consider that his resume is in fact grammatically correct, and that this is after all the internet ? I've flown with guys who can't string together a sentence on paper but make great pilots. If you aren't going to help then what is the point of saying anything ? Have to assert your dominance and showcase your importance in the industry ?

Now for the poster; take the advice of the above comments regarding your resume and cover letter. Hang around the airport and become friendly with the local pilots or operators. Most of the opportunities and jobs I've seen around lately have been for instructors, so that may be viable option if you're interested in instructing. Ramp/dispatch to flight line opportunities have been popping up and will continue to.
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digits_
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by digits_ »

Vsquared wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:22 am

What is it to you if he doesn't use correct grammar, or wears a hat backwards ? Quit being a salty, judgmental, POS. Ever consider that his resume is in fact grammatically correct, and that this is after all the internet ? I've flown with guys who can't string together a sentence on paper but make great pilots. If you aren't going to help then what is the point of saying anything ? Have to assert your dominance and showcase your importance in the industry ?
He was asking for advice. Brushing up on your grammar, even though it might have been said jokingly, is very good advice. Maybe the OP wasn't aware of how his message was perceived.

If he sends an employer an email with "Hey dude, you gonna give me a job?", he won't get a reply. Especially not in this economy.

Vsquared wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:22 am Now for the poster; take the advice of the above comments regarding your resume and cover letter. Hang around the airport and become friendly with the local pilots or operators. Most of the opportunities and jobs I've seen around lately have been for instructors, so that may be viable option if you're interested in instructing. Ramp/dispatch to flight line opportunities have been popping up and will continue to.
Or, to summarize "brush up on your grammar" :)


The only practical advice today would probably be not to expect a job in the next 3 years. "Nobody will find a job in the next 10 years" is probably a bit of a stretch, but "Almost no 250 hour pilot will find a pilot job in the next 3 years" is most likely correct. Don't get hung up on a flying job at this point. Look for something else. If you are still in school, don't rush to finish the training. Just because people say what you don't want to hear, doesn't mean it won't be correct.

If you do manage to find a job within a year, it will be by being so extremely lucky that nobody hear can you give you any reliable advice on how to succeed. The golden tip to find the job you are looking for, simply doesn't exist at this point.
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by photofly »

Vsquared wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:22 am. Ever consider that his resume is in fact grammatically correct,
On the basis of all available evidence, it isn’t.
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Re: 250hr Pilot Advice

Post by iflyforpie »

photofly wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:18 am
Vsquared wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:22 am. Ever consider that his resume is in fact grammatically correct,
On the basis of all available evidence, it isn’t.
That’s some very impressive inductive reasoning.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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