Westjet mask policy

[Rockie]

You cant tell anyone what they should do in their own space.

Since an airplane isn't "your own space" for reasons clearly beyond your ability to understand, they can in fact tell you to put on a mask.

[northernpilot2]

Yes but the highway was assessed for a 100 speed limit. Now you are saying I have to break the law and be non compliant like the others. What if I get in an accident and my insurance says why were you doing 120?

I'm not saying people are stupid for not following the law. People are stupid how they say they follow the law but really have a bias and pick and choose. Guaranteed for every super pro mask person I find who argue they follow the law and its important, I can find many laws they break and many of them may even pose risks to life such as speeding on the highway. I just don't think you can have it both ways.

This is like the TC written exams. Always more than 1 correct answer. Just pick the most safest option at the end of the day, whether its following the law or breaking it. I once had to run a red light in order to prevent being rear-ended. It was a transition yellow to red, but the guy behind me was not paying attention. If i slammed the brakes he would've been dead probably. And yes, I got pulled over but was let go after I told the cop what happened. Thankfully he had common sense, some only think 1 way.

[mbav8r]

Because people are inherently selfish, cars are safer now than they were even a few years ago, automatic braking, air bags etc.
These are safety measures put in place to reduce the risks associated with driving, can’t eliminate it but reduction is the next best thing to banning driving.
Where do you draw the line northern pilot? If the drivers ahead are going 130, how about 160? If I do the speed limit, will I not slow the people down behind me? Some may choose to pass at an unsafe time and cause an accident but I fail to see how that would be my fault for obeying the law.

[rookiepilot]

The debate over masks is hilarious. My favorite part is everyone picks and chooses when to follow the rules. Many people drive well over the speed limit doing 20 plus over the speed limit. Speeding kills, and puts the driver and others at risk. I know people who are supposed to have a social circle of 10 .............

Let me know how long you live driving 100 on the 401. Trucks will make you paint on the road....................

[mbav8r]

The debate over masks is hilarious. My favorite part is everyone picks and chooses when to follow the rules. Many people drive well over the speed limit doing 20 plus over the speed limit. Speeding kills, and puts the driver and others at risk. I know people who are supposed to have a social circle of 10 .............

Let me know how long you live driving 100 on the 401. Trucks will make you paint on the road....................

Exaggerating a little perhaps, I’ve driven the 401 and the 400 and the 407, well you get the point. I generally go 10% over the speed limit, that’s my compromise up to 110 kph, even in the US on the freeways that have a 75mph(120 kph), I still stick to 110, it’s the best fuel to speed economy for my truck, never once have I been run over by a truck. Probably because I’m not an idiot going less than the speed limit in the “fast lane” I’m also aware of my surroundings, if I’m holding someone up because of an idiot matching my speed, I’ll make room for them to get by. I call this consideration of others around me, just like wearing the GOD DAMN FUCKING MASK FOR @#$! SAKES!!!!

[mbav8r]

The debate over masks is hilarious. My favorite part is everyone picks and chooses when to follow the rules. Many people drive well over the speed limit doing 20 plus over the speed limit. Speeding kills, and puts the driver and others at risk. I know people who are supposed to have a social circle of 10 .............

Let me know how long you live driving 100 on the 401. Trucks will make you paint on the road....................

Exaggerating a little perhaps, I’ve driven the 401 and the 400 and the 407, well you get the point. I generally go 10% over the speed limit, that’s my compromise up to 110 kph, even in the US on the freeways that have a 75mph(120 kph), I still stick to 110, it’s the best fuel to speed economy for my truck, never once have I been run over by a truck. Probably because I’m not an idiot going less than the speed limit in the “fast lane” I’m also aware of my surroundings, if I’m holding someone up because of an idiot matching my speed, I’ll make room for them to get by. I call this consideration of others around me, just like wearing the GOD DAMN FUCKING MASK FOR @#$! SAKES!!!!

[rookiepilot]

Thread drift, but my highest speed -- in Germany -- was approximately the rotation speed of a wide-body. I was not the fastest car on the road, either.

[northernpilot2]

Since an airplane isn't "your own space" for reasons clearly beyond your ability to understand, they can in fact tell you to put on a mask.

Jeezus were not getting anywhere. Look, when you come out, put on a mask. Stay happy.

Let me know how long you live driving 100 on the 401. Trucks will make you paint on the road....................

Yes I agree

Because people are inherently selfish, cars are safer now than they were even a few years ago, automatic braking, air bags etc.
These are safety measures put in place to reduce the risks associated with driving, can’t eliminate it but reduction is the next best thing to banning driving.
Where do you draw the line northern pilot? If the drivers ahead are going 130, how about 160? If I do the speed limit, will I not slow the people down behind me? Some may choose to pass at an unsafe time and cause an accident but I fail to see how that would be my fault for obeying the law.

I could go on all day and start a driving debate, but just going to summarize quick. Go with the traffic flow, be it 40, 80, 100, 130 or whatever. If you cant fit your slow ass in, no problem, just move to the most right side, go as slow as you want. How the government comes up with 100 is a mystery to me. And watch out for those driving test candidates when on the highway, dangerous cars.

[mbav8r]

Since an airplane isn't "your own space" for reasons clearly beyond your ability to understand, they can in fact tell you to put on a mask.

Jeezus were not getting anywhere. Look, when you come out, put on a mask. Stay happy.

Let me know how long you live driving 100 on the 401. Trucks will make you paint on the road....................

Yes I agree

Because people are inherently selfish, cars are safer now than they were even a few years ago, automatic braking, air bags etc.
These are safety measures put in place to reduce the risks associated with driving, can’t eliminate it but reduction is the next best thing to banning driving.
Where do you draw the line northern pilot? If the drivers ahead are going 130, how about 160? If I do the speed limit, will I not slow the people down behind me? Some may choose to pass at an unsafe time and cause an accident but I fail to see how that would be my fault for obeying the law.

I could go on all day and start a driving debate, but just going to summarize quick. Go with the traffic flow, be it 40, 80, 100, 130 or whatever. If you cant fit your slow ass in, no problem, just move to the most right side, go as slow as you want. How the government comes up with 100 is a mystery to me. And watch out for those driving test candidates when on the highway, dangerous cars.

Ok but where did we land on the masks topic? If you won’t wear a mask, at least keep your distance from the people around you. I’m close to the point that I will exercise my right to defend my health and safety, if some idiot wants to get with in 6’ of me without a mask, I may just start swinging my arms, if I happen to connect, oops not my fault

[northernpilot2]

Ok but where did we land on the masks topic? If you won’t wear a mask, at least keep your distance from the people around you. I’m close to the point that I will exercise my right to defend my health and safety, if some idiot wants to get with in 6’ of me without a mask, I may just start swinging my arms, if I happen to connect, oops not my fault

I will stand by your side and fight for your right to "choose" to wear one. I will not however, support you if your going to be the mask police. Plain and simple.

[Gear Jerker]

Sigh. Ok, here I go...

For the posters who correctly point out that not everyone is wearing a mask that perfectly fits their face and whose filtration levels are consistent with those required to actually stop 100% of human droplet sized particles 100% of the time; you're right - and that's ok. It's not about 100% of people being 100% compliant with 100% perfect masks all the time. It's about enough people following the public health guidance (masks, social distancing, hand washing etc.) to overall keep the basic reproduction number - aka the "r nought" value - low enough that overall we keep the caseload at a manageable level.

And, it's been proven to work - and that's a good thing!

When it rains, and you're warm and dry inside your home, you don't think "why did I waste money on a roof, I'm not even wet!" You think, "I'm glad I have this roof to keep me dry." This is evidence of efficacy; not that there isn't a threat that needs to be mitigated.

It's a bridge to a time when a vaccine is widely distributed, and life can resume.

From the aviation/airline perspective, it's quite simple, and I'm amazed that some posters here don't understand:

You all know very well how devastating the pandemic has been on our industry. You also know that the general public knows nothing about aviation. The general public reads the daily sensational stories reporting that a passenger on ABC airline flight 123 tested positive for COVID-19, and not realizing that is simply the contact tracing program doing it's work, they think that flying on an airliner these days means breathing stale recirculated covid filled air for 4 hours and that they'll definitely catch the 'Rona and pass it along to grandma who they're going to visit.

The general public doesn't know that airline cabins are electrostatically fogged before each flight; that they have HEPA filters installed; that all persons on the secure side of an aerodrome in Canada now have to wear masks at all times; that they have to pass a temperature check and answer health screening questions to be allowed to check in/board; that they have an abundance of wipes/hand sanitizer available to them, or that there are no food/drinks served in flight.

As we all know as professional pilots, in fact, all of the above is in place, and has been deemed by IATA to be safe, and there have been zero cases of COVID transmitted on an airliner in Canada.

Bottom line: We're living through a time with 80-90% lower revenue than pre pandemic levels. If airlines had a laissez-faire, - wear a mask if you want but you don't have to - policy, the public would not feel as safe to fly, and would not book as many tickets, and airlines would struggle even more, and even less of us would have jobs.

Just wear a mask for the couple hours at a time a few times a month that you have to, for like 6 more months or a year or whatever, so that we can just get past this time as soon as possible. Nobody likes wearing them, but in a round about way it actually correlates with more revenue and more pilot jobs.

Your attempts at "waking up" and "not being a sheep" or whatever are hurting your cause, not helping.

Failing all of the above, feel free to just move to Florida.

[montado]

For everyone who believes in mandatory masks for everyone, do you also think when a vaccine is available this should be mandatory? Should regulations make it mandatory or you get kicked out of school or work? Make restrictions like you can't enter the country without the vaccine?

And as to gear jerkers points. The airlines have not lost their revenues because of the virus. They have lost the revenues because of the fear. To get buy in on the public policies they had to scare the crap out of everyone. Masks won't save the airlines. I really feel no safer on an airplane with everyone wearing a mask vs no one wearing a mask.

[Gear Jerker]

For everyone who believes in mandatory masks for everyone, do you also think when a vaccine is available this should be mandatory? Should regulations make it mandatory or you get kicked out of school or work? Make restrictions like you can't enter the country without the vaccine?

And as to gear jerkers points. The airlines have not lost their revenues because of the virus. They have lost the revenues because of the fear. To get buy in on the public policies they had to scare the crap out of everyone. Masks won't save the airlines. I really feel no safer on an airplane with everyone wearing a mask vs no one wearing a mask.

Ok, let's step back a little bit. What do YOU think would happen if nobody ever did any mitigation for COVID-19 and we carried on with crowded bars and packed sports events and concerts and a booming aviation/tourism industry and just normal life this entire time, with no special measures?

- No, I don't think vaccines should be mandatory, and I recognize that not everyone will choose to become vaccinated. However; Virology 101. Almost all of us get exposed to the virus at some point. You either get it and fight it off, or hopefully get a vaccine. In either case - in theory, you are now personally safe to carry on with normal life. Once enough people have either contracted the virus and recovered, or been vaccinated, (and the number is not known but let's say it's somewhere between 60-90%), then statistically the basic reproduction number cannot rise above 1 and the pandemic is over.

- I think each individual school or workplace should use public health guidance and resources and determine how they can best strike the balance of safety and functionality. In some cases, sure, this means mandatory mask wearing or you're kicked out.

- Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. Fortunately, the public health measures in place for aviation seem to solve both problems - the actual threat, and the perceived threat. Frankly, I don't give a sh** if you personally feel safer with or without a mask on. IATA has given airlines guidance, airlines follow the guidance, more and more members of the public feel safer to book tickets and more and more of our colleagues have jobs.

[montado]

I think the virus would look much like how things have gone in the states. I would guess right now 25 percent of Americans have been exposed to the virus. Without a vaccine if Americans stay on track maybe within a year nearly all Americans would have had the virus. 1 million Wil die due to complications from it. Most of these people were elderly and half way to heaven anyways. Some rare cases will kill younger and healthier individuals. 1 million Americans die, death rate is about 0.3 percent on track to be twice as bad as the flu.

The worst part is we will suffer the consequences of shutdown and economic impact as well as the actual effects of the virus itself. We get a double wammy because everyone had a different plan. It won't matter if we eradicate the virus in Canada, economically we are doomed on the global stage.

So I think if we did nothing 110k Canadians would have died from covid. by 2022. Cancer kills 80k a year in Canada. Heart disease kills 50k.

[digits_]

You know what sticks in my craw? Seatbelts. If I ever get into an accident, I want to be thrown clear of my vehicle. If it happens to be straight through the windshield, then oh well.

It's a respiratory virus. It's not going to kill you to wear a F***king mask.

It also won't kill you not wearing it. That's the whole point...

When seatbelts became mandatory, there was a significant group of people who found the comfort of not wearing a seatbelt more important than increasing their chances of survival in an unlikely crash. It's only after the government made it mandatory, and one generation died off, that it became somewhat widely accepted that you should wear it.

If covid was as deadly as ebola, pretty sure everyone would be wearing their masks all the time. Me included. But it's not. So I'd rather go shopping without a mask while keeping my distance from other people. In an area 200 miles away from the nearest covid case. Yet the big brand stores are making masks mandatory. Right.

[Rockie]

It also won't kill you not wearing it. That's the whole point...

It isn't about you, that's the whole point. It's the people around you. Why does that brutally simple fact not penetrate the cement in your heads?

Let me know how long you live driving 100 on the 401. Trucks will make you paint on the road....................

30 years and counting. All you have to do is drive in the right lane and leave the high speed stuff to the lunatics in the left. BTW, you can drive 100 on the autobahns as well, just stay to the right.

[digits_]

It also won't kill you not wearing it. That's the whole point...

It isn't about you, that's the whole point. It's the people around you. Why does that brutally simple fact not penetrate the cement in your heads?

If it weren't mandatory, then It's not a courtesy I expect from other people, because it's something I prefer not to do myself given the relatively low risk. I also wonder about the effectiveness of masks in an airplane situation.'

You can disagree with that, but you can't deny that such a group of people exist. If you want airline travel to go back to normal levels, then you have to take that into account.

[Gear Jerker]

You know what sticks in my craw? Seatbelts. If I ever get into an accident, I want to be thrown clear of my vehicle. If it happens to be straight through the windshield, then oh well.

It's a respiratory virus. It's not going to kill you to wear a F***king mask.

It also won't kill you not wearing it. That's the whole point...

When seatbelts became mandatory, there was a significant group of people who found the comfort of not wearing a seatbelt more important than increasing their chances of survival in an unlikely crash. It's only after the government made it mandatory, and one generation died off, that it became somewhat widely accepted that you should wear it.

If covid was as deadly as ebola, pretty sure everyone would be wearing their masks all the time. Me included. But it's not. So I'd rather go shopping without a mask while keeping my distance from other people. In an area 200 miles away from the nearest covid case. Yet the big brand stores are making masks mandatory. Right.

Do you understand what all the talk of early on in the pandemic about "flattening the curve" was about, how it relates to medical resources, and how that in turn effects fatality rate of the virus?

Also, do you really think that governments around the world would take such unprecedented, economically devastating actions if the whole thing was no big deal and we're a bunch of snowflakes and its just the flu, etc.? That multiple governments around the world would impose a lockdown of their citizens?

PS: Ebola has a fatality rate well over 50%, an R nought of less than 2, and is transmitted by bodily fluids. There's a reason why significantly more people have died of COVID-19 in the United States alone in less than a year even with all the containment measures, than have ever died of Ebola. If you don't understand the flawed logic in your apples to oranges example, then we're not on a level where we can rationally discuss this.

- Edited to take about 25% off the tone lol. And to clarify this isn't entirely directed at you.

[digits_]

Do you understand what all the talk of early on in the pandemic about "flattening the curve" was about, how it relates to medical resources, and how that in turn effects fatality rate of the virus?

Yes, but it doesn't affect your chances of dying once you get it. If that were higher, people would be more concerned.
I can understand wearing a mask when a lot of people have brief contacts, such as in a grocery store with a significant covid presence, but in an airplane where you spend 4 hours sitting next to the same person? I doubt a mask would save you there.

Also, do you really think that governments around the world would take such unprecedented, economically devastating actions if the whole thing was no big deal and we're a bunch of snowflakes and its just the flu, etc.? That multiple governments around the world would impose a lockdown of their citizens?

Yes. If 10 other countries take measures, and you don't, it's hard to cover your behind if something goes wrong. Not saying that this is what happened here, but I could definitely see it happen.

I'm also not saying all actions taken by the government are ridiculous or unnecessary. I find wearing a mask in an airplane ineffective, and wearing a mask in GroceryMegaChain in McLakeNowhere because the headquarters in Toronto are getting panicky, silly.

That's also part of the problem with the whole covid thing: if you object to one thing, all of a sudden people think you don't want to do anything and you are irresponsible etc. It's achieving cult like status with believers and non-believers.

PS: Ebola has a fatality rate well over 50%, an R nought of less than 2, and is transmitted by bodily fluids. There's a reason why significantly more people have died of COVID-19 in the United States alone in less than a year even with all the containment measures, than have ever died of Ebola. If you don't understand the flawed logic in your apples to oranges example, then we're not on a level where we can rationally discuss this.

The risk is that you enter the plane and that you are sitting next to an infected person, right?
A thought experiment. You have 2 people, one may or may not have covid, the other may or may not have ebola. Which one would you prefer to sit next to? I'll let you wear a mask.

I would be worried about contracting ebola, because I would be afraid of dying.
I'm not that worried about contracting covid, because even if I get it, there is only a 1% chance of me dying.

- Edited to take about 25% off the tone lol. And to clarify this isn't entirely directed at you.

Thank you

[northernpilot2]

Thread drift, but my highest speed -- in Germany -- was approximately the rotation speed of a wide-body. I was not the fastest car on the road, either.

I still need to go there and drive one day, I'm sure it would be fun.