People just want their money back, forget credits.

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rookiepilot
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People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by rookiepilot »

I came across this, scanning the news. Don't shoot the messenger.

https://globalnews.ca/video/7345124/let ... -of-demand

Lethbridge family seeking cash refund after WestJet cancels flight over lack of demand
WATCH ABOVE: Jason Nilsson, along with his wife and three children, were supposed to fly to Barbados with WestJet in October. Three weeks before their scheduled trip, they were told the flight didn’t have enough demand and was cancelled by the airline. As Eloise Therien explains, they aren’t upset with the cancellation, but are frustrated a cash refund was not offered.

Then saw this, after a 15 second search...

#2. https://globalnews.ca/news/7222348/west ... s-refunds/

This guy is looking for $15 GRAND in business flight refunds. Multiple flights.....great PR, Team Teal.

Ripa is also concerned about what he called “mixed messages” when it comes to which flights are deemed ‘refundable’. He said he was told by WestJet that if it cancelled certain flights, he would be able to get his money back, but if he cancelled — he was out of luck.

Apparently not -- even when the airline cancels.

I think you'd be nuts to book any flights right now, except on very short notice right now -- sorry it's how I see it. I'm not lending these guys my money without any protections.

I thought the new government rules would take of care of these problems. What gives? This is in the airline's control!

Or maybe it's just Westjet coming apart at the seams. Sorry guys. Lots of us are suffering -- think "small business". You think we can afford to accept credits?

Again, Horrible PR.

And completely, morally wrong to hold onto people's money, ESPECIALLY during this difficult time for so many families.
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rookiepilot
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by rookiepilot »

Oh, and to the "sit down, shut up, do what you're told, be thankful to maybe get a credit when we cancel your flight crowd " ---

.......people are now using Zoom. Good luck getting them back.
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porcsord
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by porcsord »

I'd be okay with a guarantee of the same flights in the future. Credit is silly. Let's say you and your family booked a trip to Europe at 1500 return each, so you pay call it.... 4500 for the round trip tickets. BAM. Pandemic hits and the airline says "hey, we will give you credit for 4500 once this madness ends" for up to two years. Well, you find a new date that works for you, but unfortunately the tickets are now 2500 a head, and in order to book the same vacation you're in for another 3000 bucks. On top of not getting interest for the 4500 you lent the airline, you now have to pay them an extra 3000 to not loose your credit within the two years...

Now that I think about it... I might start buy AC stock.
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digits_
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by digits_ »

Yup pretty disgusting. Do credit cards protect you here? After all they are not delivering the promised services.
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rookiepilot
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by rookiepilot »

digits_ wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:43 pm Yup pretty disgusting. Do credit cards protect you here? After all they are not delivering the promised services.
No. To them the credit is considered adequate compensation.

My view: Airlines are betting on the naivety and, especially the passivity of consumers.

I was told, on one of my cancelled flights by a CAD carrier -- 12 hour delay, no compensation -- explicitly, in signed in writing by an employee, I'd receive a refund for the hotel room I had to suddenly book for the night. Last second, overseas, $300, at least.

Airline didn't care what their own employee signed. They reneged, stalled me for 6 weeks while trying to offer me a 10% discount on a future flight instead. Valid 1 year. Only paid up when I took it public on Twitter.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
AuxBatOn
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by AuxBatOn »

It has been argued, successfully, with credit cards and airlines that you bought a ticket to go from A to B on a given date, not a credit for flying in the future.

Re: credit. I was also told that if you don’t spent the whole credit in one shot, you forfeit the rest... so, you get a $3,000 credit, you only spend $2,000 and you just lost $1,000.
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by Dronepiper »

The issue is airlines will literally go bankrupt if they give refunds. The majority of cash on hand at some airlines is pre purchased tickets. What should happen: airlines should be given bailouts, and as part of the deal, they must refund anyone who wants a refund. I think this is win-win. The public is happy, and the airlines survive.
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rookiepilot
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by rookiepilot »

Dronepiper wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:26 pm The issue is airlines will literally go bankrupt if they give refunds. The majority of cash on hand at some airlines is pre purchased tickets. What should happen: airlines should be given bailouts, and as part of the deal, they must refund anyone who wants a refund. I think this is win-win. The public is happy, and the airlines survive.
Are we bailing out the thousands of restaurants that have blown up as well? (To name only one category of small business)

No.
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porcsord
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by porcsord »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:39 pm Are we bailing out the thousands of restaurants that have blown up as well? (To name only one category of small business)

No.
Exactly. All these people talking about bailing out the airlines don't seem to advocate for the myriad of other businesses that are going under and could use a bailout. If AC or WS go under, someone will rise up again. It will be terrible for a while, but eventually it will come back in some form or another. The airlines have had record profits over the last decade, and it's their fault if they don't survive.
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by iflyforpie »

This is the reason why nobody is flying. Not some rules that even I didn’t know about specifically until Gilles brought them up.

Really thought about buying the whole family confirmed tickets to Japan next year. We’ve always wanted to go and passes just won’t work for us going there. Prices were unbelievable.

But forget it. Non refundable. Really glad I didn’t.

And tons of people feel the exact same way I do.

I notice that Air Canada is offering unlimited flight passes. A few American airlines did this decades ago to raise cash to cover massive increases in fuel. But those passes didn’t expire and costed the airlines lots of revenue so they started ruthless processes to try and void them.

I suppose at least Air Canada has taken a page from software companies and made it a subscription.. but I wonder how long it will take before people see screwed by that, too?

I feel for the employees. I really do.

But your industry sucks.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by photofly »

Dronepiper wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:26 pm The issue is airlines will literally go bankrupt if they give refunds. The majority of cash on hand at some airlines is pre purchased tickets. What should happen: airlines should be given bailouts, and as part of the deal, they must refund anyone who wants a refund. I think this is win-win. The public is happy, and the airlines survive.
Any person who wants to funnel my tax money directly to people rich enough to fly to Barbados instead of to people who have no food can go **** themselves.
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rookiepilot
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:21 am
Any person who wants to funnel my tax money directly to people rich enough to fly to Barbados instead of to people who have no food can go **** themselves.
It's hard to improve on this. Piss off airlines with your entitled attitude. You're not special.
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by Air.Field »

Our useless gov't is to blame. Everywhere else around the world the gov'ts gave airlines much needed money, so that they could refund passengers! Canadian airlines have asked the gov't to do the same so that they could refund, because without that cash most, if not all airlines will go under if they refund and get no gov't assistance.
Sure another new airline will emerge of the likes of canada jetlines, swoop, flair, pivot, etc, have fun working and/or flying with them.
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by photofly »

I would like to leave the decision about insolvency to the creditors - the people owed refunds. Sure they can press for their cash back, but let *them* decide if they’re willing to drag the airline(s) under, put the employees out of work, and damage the economy to a greater or lesser extent, in order to get their money back. Not to mention risk getting pennies on the dollar. This is the traditional way for people who lend money to private businesses (which is what you do when you purchase an advance ticket) to conduct their affairs. I don’t have a preference either way, except my tax money is not the answer to the problems of either side of a business transaction.
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by digits_ »

Dronepiper wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:26 pm The issue is airlines will literally go bankrupt if they give refunds. The majority of cash on hand at some airlines is pre purchased tickets. What should happen: airlines should be given bailouts, and as part of the deal, they must refund anyone who wants a refund. I think this is win-win. The public is happy, and the airlines survive.
That argument would only make me push harder to get a refund...
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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digits_
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:44 am
photofly wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:21 am
Any person who wants to funnel my tax money directly to people rich enough to fly to Barbados instead of to people who have no food can go **** themselves.
It's hard to improve on this. Piss off airlines with your entitled attitude. You're not special.
Yeah yeah, but you're forgetting that airplane travel is a privilege, not a right ;-)

Apparently so is getting your money back!

Pay for your ticket and we may or may not fly you there. No worries if we don't, we'll give you a credit you can use for a duration of our choosing, to a destination we may or may not serve anymore. But we guarantee you can keep trying. That is, until we don't feel like it anymore.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Interesting dynamic at play. I get why the airlines want to conserve cash by offering travel vouchers over refunds but it I wonder if the unintended consequences have been fully thought out. Specifically how are the airlines going to grow back if no one is willing to make a forward booking because they won't get their money back if the airline unilaterally cancels their flight.

Even if people are OK with vouchers, the vouchers are not for a replacement flight, they are for a dollar amount. So if the equivalent flight for next year costs twice as much you will have effectively bought the flight twice, but if it is less you will not be refunded the difference.

I have to think such abusive practices are going to come back and haunt the airlines

Photo

When you buy an advance ticket you are not "lending" the airline money you are purchasing a service. If the service is unilaterally withdrawn then it would seem logical to me that your money should be refunded. If you use your logic when you order something from Amazon and then don't get, it you are supposed to say "oh well that investment did not pan out" and write off your money....really ?
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:31 am
Yeah yeah, but you're forgetting that airplane travel is a privilege, not a right ;-)
Right are worth no more than the lesser of your will to enforce them and the tools the government gives you to do so.
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by photofly »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:38 am
When you buy an advance ticket you are not "lending" the airline money
As a matter of law and as a matter of practice, that’s exactly what you’re doing.
If you use your logic when you order something from Amazon and then don't get, it you are supposed to say "oh well that investment did not pan out" and write off your money....really ?
You can write it off, or try to get a refund; it’s your call, and I have no care either way. Just don’t expect me to dip into my pocket because you trusted Dodgy McRetailer.
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Re: People just want their money back, forget credits.

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:45 am You can write it off, or try to get a refund; it’s your call, and I have no care either way. Just don’t expect me to dip into my pocket because you trusted Dodgy McRetailer.
You seem to imply that people bought stuff and prepaid at shady retailers. I'd hardly call Air Canada or Amazon a dodgy retailer. Both of them use customer service as a big selling point. If you expect customers to pay top dollar at AC after this is over, versus low cost Swoop, then don't behave like a low cost carrier would. If that's what I am getting anyway, that's probably what I would be paying for after this is over.

The return policy at Amazon is one of the major reasons why they became so big. They took the fear away that people had of internet shopping and being ripped off. It's a shame that Air Canada (and others) is now reintroducing that fear.

Investors are usually one of the last ones to get money back when a company goes bankrupt. Clients who didn't get any services delivered can sue right away and should, in theory, get their money back, or might trigger the bankruptcy. Either way, in general, they (should) have a bit more protection.

Credit card companies also play a big role here. They should take a stance and consider this goods not delivered.
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