The clubhouse.....

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PilotDAR
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The clubhouse.....

Post by PilotDAR »

When I was a teenage pilot wannabe, I hung around the clubhouse (Maple Airport). I listened a lot, and spoke a few times - probably making myself look silly some of that time! But, I was around aviation, and I liked that. Aside from reading at home, it really was the only way to be around aviation and pilots back in the '70's. As a new pilot, I hung around the clubhouse at Brampton. A tiny bit wiser, and still very eager to hang around and learn from the old wise, established members. I still said things which probably displayed my inexperience, but I was polite, and seemingly accepted.

Since then, I hang around clubhouses less, with my own runway, it's easier to just stay home. But I still revere those pilots with more experience than I as I get older, I want to learn from these wise, experienced pilots, while they will share their wisdom. So I sure act as though I appreciate them! If I disagree I try to filter or mute and appearance of disagreement. They're not at the clubhouse so much, and neither am I, I find them here!

So, while finding them in the AvCanada clubhouse, I still want to convey courtesy, and appreciation. And, for the new wannabe pilots who have come here, similarly, I want to appear to be courteous, and appreciate that they are interested in joining our passion. We need new pilots, more than every! And it's a much steeper hill than when I did it in the '70's.

So, aside form the occasional clarification, or defense, I would like to portray, receive, and generally see, conduct around here, which is at least as polite as would be the case if we were all sitting around with coffee. Why would anything less be acceptable - because people are anonymous? Pish posh!

Happily, as I search back old posts, I do see a trend that the long time, courteous members seem to stay around, and some of the members who seemed to struggle to be courteous seemed to drift off. Perhaps to another site, I don't know, I'm not there! I appreciate you wise, courteous, mentoring members!
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RedAndWhiteBaron
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Speaking for myself, I have found AVCanada to be a great place. Not just a valuable resource, but I've made a few friends here as well. This has been of immeasurable value to me as there are no aviators among my family or friends. I have found almost all the discussion here to be courteous, and civil, despite the wide range of political values found here. And lord knows, I've been known to throw down in a few arguments and state some of my opinions quite vociferously.

I have met several friends here - hell, I met my current instructor on this site. I'd probably have been hanging around at the Brampton clubhouse a lot more this summer were it not for Covid-19, and this forum, I feel, is as close to a virtual clubhouse as one can get.

Sure it's the Internet, we're anonymous, and most of us are a bunch of stubborn pilots. But somehow in spite of all that, I have felt welcomed here, have participated in a good number of heated yet civil debates, and not once have I been talked down to as a junior or patronized, no matter how wrong I was (wait, does that happen? :smt040 ). I have nothing but good things to say about the company here.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by Flyboy757 »

Got my start in Aviation hanging around the clubhouse in Picton, Ont at the Prince Edward Flying Club. (PEFC) From the late 50`s until I joined the CF/RCAF in 69, every free minute was at the airport. Odd jobs at the club or cleaning members planes....did it all in exchange for flight time! Lots of good people came and went. Most memorable .....spent a lot of time hanging with Dave Barker of the RCAF Golden Hawks in 1963. Sadly the Hawks were disbanded in 64.Still proudly display my autographed picture. My time at the clubhouse and airport only convinced me even more that I wanted a career in aviation......33 years in aviation went by quickly!!! Loved almost every minute of it....starting at that little clubhouse in Picton.......
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ogopogo
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by ogopogo »

Flyboy757 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:41 pm Got my start in Aviation hanging around the clubhouse in Picton, Ont at the Prince Edward Flying Club. (PEFC) From the late 50`s until I joined the CF/RCAF in 69, every free minute was at the airport. Odd jobs at the club or cleaning members planes....did it all in exchange for flight time! Lots of good people came and went. Most memorable .....spent a lot of time hanging with Dave Barker of the RCAF Golden Hawks in 1963. Sadly the Hawks were disbanded in 64.Still proudly display my autographed picture. My time at the clubhouse and airport only convinced me even more that I wanted a career in aviation......33 years in aviation went by quickly!!! Loved almost every minute of it....starting at that little clubhouse in Picton.......
You should see it now......:-(. A social club, really. No planes, airport not really an airport. With all the hoohah about Prince Edward County, the place is an eyesore.

:-(
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by Flyboy757 »

ogopogo wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:53 pm
Flyboy757 wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:41 pm Got my start in Aviation hanging around the clubhouse in Picton, Ont at the Prince Edward Flying Club. (PEFC) From the late 50`s until I joined the CF/RCAF in 69, every free minute was at the airport. Odd jobs at the club or cleaning members planes....did it all in exchange for flight time! Lots of good people came and went. Most memorable .....spent a lot of time hanging with Dave Barker of the RCAF Golden Hawks in 1963. Sadly the Hawks were disbanded in 64.Still proudly display my autographed picture. My time at the clubhouse and airport only convinced me even more that I wanted a career in aviation......33 years in aviation went by quickly!!! Loved almost every minute of it....starting at that little clubhouse in Picton.......
You should see it now......:-(. A social club, really. No planes, airport not really an airport. With all the hoohah about Prince Edward County, the place is an eyesore.

:-(
With the retirement of the long time ,1953 to 1974, Manager and CFI the club started a slow descent. It never again saw the great successes of the 60`s and early 70`s. Looking at their website, as you say, a social club. Airport is now PPR, landing fees and no services. Was suppose to attend their Fathers Day Fly in breakfast this year with my brother in his plane but COVID cancelled the function.
I imagine there are other clubs and airports that faded away like PEFC and Picton but I will always have great memories of my time there.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by DanWEC »

I think the small, social Flying Club is the absolute best way for anyone to start flying! You meet good people, get the passion and love of aviation cemented inside you by like-minded pilots, hear amazing stories and are probably more likely to start having some of your own.
I started hanging around the Windsor Flying club at 15, and loved every minute of it.
I say this as opposed to going through a license mill flight school. I've instructed at such, and it's just not the same. It's a race to get in and get out, not to linger around for the joy of it. I'd go so far as to say it can really colour your lifelong perspective on aviation.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by ayseven »

And I thought it was going to be about sandwiches. Speaking of which, some of the best hamburgers I've ever had were near, and at YYJ in the 70's and 80's. Met a lot of interesting people through the cafés, several of whom became my PPL/CPL/IFR instructors later on. Many are unfortunately gone now of course. It is the people you remember, when you look back.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by valleyboy »

I learned to fly at the original Brampton Flying Club. The area was so much fun to fly in with lots of farm strips to drop in for coffee and a visit. The Oshawa fly in was a big event back then and a prize for the first aircraft to land. I think they opened it up for 08:00. With a buddy of mine, each with a J3, we flew over early and landed in a farmers field next to oshawa airport with the plan to take off and land right at 8 but some guy circled over head and beat us in -- :mrgreen: We didn't have radios and no electrics, it was a time where it was truly fun and great adventures. Any piece of flat ground had the potential to be a landing strip. :smt040

BFC back then was a very small close nit family and where I learned to not only fly but drink coffee as well -- When buddy fired up his cessna 195 and went flying it was a real club event.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by shamrock104 »

Flew out of Fairoaks in Surrey. A great club feel with the old bell still standing. This was used to scramble the Spitfire Pilots during the second world war. Lots of grass strip flying on a weekend though the "class" system definitely existed in aviation with mostly the well off being the only ones to be able to afford flying.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by rookiepilot »

PilotDAR wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:15 pm
So, aside form the occasional clarification, or defense, I would like to portray, receive, and generally see, conduct around here, which is at least as polite as would be the case if we were all sitting around with coffee. Why would anything less be acceptable - because people are anonymous? Pish posh!
Anonymity makes cowards into bullies.

Pilot Dar. I sincerely appreciate the intent of your post, and particularly coming from such a respected member of this site. However supportive words aren't enough in my view.

To make this truly the clubhouse, certain behaviours need to be enforceable as off limits, because online predators are a part of the Internet.

I've seen posters who disagreed with other posters, threaten them, or go to a disgustingly personal level -- like attacking members marriages or inflicting pain deliberately. The victims sometimes don't return.

In a real clubhouse, this behaviour would be dealt with with being kicked out of the clubhouse physically -- and possibly behind the clubhouse, much more physically.

That isn't possible here. Such behaviour needs to be dealt with assertively, and "holidays" don't change behaviour. I propose outing the identity of the poster. Their employers or clients deserve to know the character of the individual they are dealing with.

I am serious, and propose this to the community.

Sincerely,

Robert.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:02 pm
PilotDAR wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:15 pm
So, aside form the occasional clarification, or defense, I would like to portray, receive, and generally see, conduct around here, which is at least as polite as would be the case if we were all sitting around with coffee. Why would anything less be acceptable - because people are anonymous? Pish posh!
Anonymity makes cowards into bullies.

Pilot Dar. I sincerely appreciate the intent of your post, and particularly coming from such a respected member of this site. However supportive words aren't enough in my view.

To make this truly the clubhouse, certain behaviours need to be enforceable as off limits, because online predators are a part of the Internet.

I've seen posters who disagreed with other posters, threaten them, or go to a disgustingly personal level -- like attacking members marriages or inflicting pain deliberately. The victims sometimes don't return.

In a real clubhouse, this behaviour would be dealt with with being kicked out of the clubhouse physically -- and possibly behind the clubhouse, much more physically.

That isn't possible here. Such behaviour needs to be dealt with assertively, and "holidays" don't change behaviour. I propose outing the identity of the poster. Their employers or clients deserve to know the character of the individual they are dealing with.

I am serious, and propose this to the community.

Sincerely,

Robert.
While this feels and sounds good in theory, it is basically the online equivalent of vigilante justice. Who now becomes the arbiter of what is simply "over the top" and what is "unforgivable"? Who decides who simply get banned and who has their life ruined? Not only that - this is the Internet. People can register anonymously. Unless a member is known personally to other members, what you are proposing will be impossible without either a civil search warrant (essentially impossible to obtain and would produce only circumstantial evidence anyway), or employing illegal methods. It won't keep out the trolls.

Banning only works so well since it's quite easy to register; it won't keep out determined trolls. Members with established accounts who post a late night drunken tirade once in a year shouldn't be banned, in that case a holiday would work well.

Some things I've seen work on other forums
- a post frequency limit until a certain number of posts have been made, or time since registration has happened
- a "flag this post" option to alert moderators that a post has violated some established community standard (nvm, I just found that)
- a three strikes rule; after three "holidays", you're gone for good
- allowing OPs to remove posts from their own threads (not sure if this forum has that feature)

I certainly would have appreciated #4 in my steep turns thread.

All that said, it's not that bad here. Sure there's a few trolls here and there, a few angry posts, and a good helping of heated arguments. But it's really not that bad.
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rookiepilot
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by rookiepilot »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:02 pm
PilotDAR wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:15 pm
So, aside form the occasional clarification, or defense, I would like to portray, receive, and generally see, conduct around here, which is at least as polite as would be the case if we were all sitting around with coffee. Why would anything less be acceptable - because people are anonymous? Pish posh!
Anonymity makes cowards into bullies.

Pilot Dar. I sincerely appreciate the intent of your post, and particularly coming from such a respected member of this site. However supportive words aren't enough in my view.

To make this truly the clubhouse, certain behaviours need to be enforceable as off limits, because online predators are a part of the Internet.

I've seen posters who disagreed with other posters, threaten them, or go to a disgustingly personal level -- like attacking members marriages or inflicting pain deliberately. The victims sometimes don't return.

In a real clubhouse, this behaviour would be dealt with with being kicked out of the clubhouse physically -- and possibly behind the clubhouse, much more physically.

That isn't possible here. Such behaviour needs to be dealt with assertively, and "holidays" don't change behaviour. I propose outing the identity of the poster. Their employers or clients deserve to know the character of the individual they are dealing with.

I am serious, and propose this to the community.

Sincerely,

Robert.
While this feels and sounds good in theory, it is basically the online equivalent of vigilante justice. Who now becomes the arbiter of what is simply "over the top" and what is "unforgivable"? Who decides who simply get banned and who has their life ruined? Not only that - this is the Internet. People can register anonymously. Unless a member is known personally to other members, what you are proposing will be impossible without either a civil search warrant (essentially impossible to obtain and would produce only circumstantial evidence anyway), or employing illegal methods. It won't keep out the trolls.

Banning only works so well since it's quite easy to register; it won't keep out determined trolls. Members with established accounts who post a late night drunken tirade once in a year shouldn't be banned, in that case a holiday would work well.

Some things I've seen work on other forums
- a post frequency limit until a certain number of posts have been made, or time since registration has happened
- a "flag this post" option to alert moderators that a post has violated some established community standard (nvm, I just found that)
- a three strikes rule; after three "holidays", you're gone for good
- allowing OPs to remove posts from their own threads (not sure if this forum has that feature)

I certainly would have appreciated #4 in my steep turns thread.

All that said, it's not that bad here. Sure there's a few trolls here and there, a few angry posts, and a good helping of heated arguments. But it's really not that bad.
There is truly some amazing knowledge here. I've learned a lot. So have many others. That should be protected!

Why does losing anonymity mean having ones life ruined?
I submit if that is the worst thing that happens, life is pretty darned good!

I suggest this:

One shouldn't post on social media what they wouldn't want their employer to see. People have been (very rightly in my view ) fired for posts on FB, and racist rants filmed in public. Courts have upheld you're responsible in private life for representing your employer with your character.

On twitter they have a block function, twitter will suspend accounts permanently, and no one can send you vitrol filled PM's when they don't agree with you. Hence I post on twitter under my real name.

It's great because I teach there on financial concepts -- for some reason I have 2000 followers -- freely as the experienced pilots here teach. I block disrespectful people quickly, which makes for a quality feed for everyone. I don't argue. It's my feed, my rules.

Av Can should consider moving to a block function, not a mute function.

That alone will eliminate the trolls.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by CpnCrunch »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm
Banning only works so well since it's quite easy to register; it won't keep out determined trolls. Members with established accounts who post a late night drunken tirade once in a year shouldn't be banned, in that case a holiday would work well.

Some things I've seen work on other forums
- a post frequency limit until a certain number of posts have been made, or time since registration has happened
- a "flag this post" option to alert moderators that a post has violated some established community standard (nvm, I just found that)
- a three strikes rule; after three "holidays", you're gone for good
- allowing OPs to remove posts from their own threads (not sure if this forum has that feature)

I certainly would have appreciated #4 in my steep turns thread.

All that said, it's not that bad here. Sure there's a few trolls here and there, a few angry posts, and a good helping of heated arguments. But it's really not that bad.
avcanada used to be a lot worse, but isn't too bad these days. It would be nice if OPs could delete comments from their threads, but I don't know if that is possible in phpbb.

TBH I've seen a lot worse than this in some real-life flying clubs.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:15 pm
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:25 pm While this feels and sounds good in theory, it is basically the online equivalent of vigilante justice. Who now becomes the arbiter of what is simply "over the top" and what is "unforgivable"? Who decides who simply get banned and who has their life ruined? Not only that - this is the Internet. People can register anonymously. Unless a member is known personally to other members, what you are proposing will be impossible without either a civil search warrant (essentially impossible to obtain and would produce only circumstantial evidence anyway), or employing illegal methods. It won't keep out the trolls.

Banning only works so well since it's quite easy to register; it won't keep out determined trolls. Members with established accounts who post a late night drunken tirade once in a year shouldn't be banned, in that case a holiday would work well.

Some things I've seen work on other forums
- a post frequency limit until a certain number of posts have been made, or time since registration has happened
- a "flag this post" option to alert moderators that a post has violated some established community standard (nvm, I just found that)
- a three strikes rule; after three "holidays", you're gone for good
- allowing OPs to remove posts from their own threads (not sure if this forum has that feature)

I certainly would have appreciated #4 in my steep turns thread.

All that said, it's not that bad here. Sure there's a few trolls here and there, a few angry posts, and a good helping of heated arguments. But it's really not that bad.
There is truly some amazing knowledge here. I've learned a lot. So have many others. That should be protected!

Why does losing anonymity mean having ones life ruined?
I submit if that is the worst thing that happens, life is pretty darned good!

I suggest this:

One shouldn't post on social media what they wouldn't want their employer to see. People have been (very rightly in my view ) fired for posts on FB, and racist rants filmed in public. Courts have upheld you're responsible in private life for representing your employer with your character.

On twitter they have a block function, twitter will suspend accounts permanently, and no one can send you vitrol filled PM's when they don't agree with you. Hence I post on twitter under my real name.

It's great because I teach there on financial concepts -- for some reason I have 2000 followers -- freely as the experienced pilots here teach. I block disrespectful people quickly, which makes for a quality feed for everyone. I don't argue. It's my feed, my rules.

Av Can should consider moving to a block function, not a mute function.

That alone will eliminate the trolls.
I don't disagree on your first point - if I shit talked my employer on Twitter on my commute home, I'd be out of a job by sundown.

That still leaves the rather insurmountable issues of a) who gets to be judge and b) it would be technologically near-impossible to actually enforce on an anonymous forum

A block function would be great, I agree.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by PilotDAR »

Many years back, I was a [junior] participant in a consensus group for Canadian standards (CGSB, gasoline, supporting Mogas use). I recall that there was a lot of process to encourage the entire group to agree on the action that the CGSB should take, based upon a balance of producers and users of a product. But, if the group simply could not agree, one last measure tool was available: The group could vote to rule a particular dissenter as being non persuasive. If the vote passed, though that member would remain, their position on that issue would be formally disregarded.

I never saw that measure applied, we were mature, and did not need it. Even when the Shell chemist vigorously opposed the use of their automotive gasoline in airplanes, he ultimately did not stand in the way of a CGSB policy allowing it. Similarly, I've never been a member of a club where a member had to be excommunicated. For the few times something was amiss, a quiet word off to the side seemed adequate. I guess there's a lot to be said about being publicly identifiable for what you say/post....

There are chat group websites I choose not to be associated with, just as there are probably clubs I would not enjoy. Everyone does not fit well everywhere....

Fitting on AvCanada seems desirable though....
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by rookiepilot »

PilotDAR wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:27 pm
For the few times something was amiss, a quiet word off to the side seemed adequate. I guess there's a lot to be said about being publicly identifiable for what you say/post....
Agreed.
I'd like to hear then a compelling argument why anonymity is so essential here.

.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

My 02 cents

1) Avcanada is IMO much better than it used to be. Permanently banning about half a dozen notorious haters, flamers, and trolls improved the site significantly.

2) My experience is you get out of the site what you put in. Constructively engage and a lot of interesting and useful information will be provided by some very knowledgeable folks. Make it personal and everybody will either return it in kind or just tune you out

3) Over time the quality of the information provided by posters will be become evident. There are certain regular posters I watch for and certain regular posters which cause my eyes to instantly glaze over when I see their name

4) I always revisit any of my posts about 5 minutes after I had hit the submit button. This has on numerous occasions caused me to use the edit function to dial back the tone.

5) I have a bag full of ratings, 8000 hrs of flying time over 43 years, but I still either learn something or find a different opinion on an issue which forces me to reassess my position almost every time I visit avcanada
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:42 pm I'd like to hear then a compelling argument why anonymity is so essential here.
It isn't. Here's my position on that: I would not post my name publicly here, but I am happy to identify myself to anyone who asks privately. But this is mostly due to the fact that this is already an anonymous forum, and I signed up under that agreement.

(And I do mean that, via PM I am not just happy, but eager to make myself known to other members here. PM me if you have any doubts)

This is an anonymous forum, like it or lump it. Everyone signed up under that agreement. To change this after the fact is the same as "We are altering the deal. Pray we do not alter it any further." I signed up for an anonymous forum, and I expect that agreement to be honoured. There are many good people here who choose to be here and yet remain anonymous. They contribute significantly to the quality of discussion, and to change that would chase away a good number of members. While I am more than happy to share who I am in meatspace with people here, *I* will choose who I share that with and when, or I will leave. I do not want my real name to be searchable on this forum and archived on the Internet forever (and remember, deleted isn't). I doubt I'm the only person holding that opinion.

I would absolutely not be opposed to a forum on this site where people would be required to identify themselves before posting. Very much in favour of it actually.

The next problem with removing anonymity is the technical overhaul that would be required - it's just not realistic to expect that from a site run by volunteers (this is my many years of professional IT experience speaking here). Beyond requiring a scanned copy of a driver's license or document booklet, coupled with moderated registration, I don't see how it would be possible technically. And even then, I can fake a scanned driver's license. It's just not feasible IMHO. What would you do, demand ID from all members within 90 days and delete all accounts that don't comply? This place would be a wasteland.

After that, changing from an anonymous site to real-name site would simply change the character of this place so much, I don't think it would survive. I've seen it happen, I've seen it fail. I've never seen it succeed.

I would totally be in favor of a "clubhouse" forum, where you would be required in some way to identify yourself before being allowed to post, perhaps by invitation or referral, if it were not searchable by the myriad of search engines. Such a forum would likely keep out the overwhelming majority of trolls and asshats. It would feel like a clubhouse. It would respect the original "membership agreement", while providing a place for what you seek.

Just another of my 2¢.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by digits_ »

I appreciate the information some people here have shared about their (former) employers. I have a feeling a lot less people would do this if anonymous accounts weren't possible.
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Re: The clubhouse.....

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

digits_ wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:18 pm I appreciate the information some people here have shared about their (former) employers. I have a feeling a lot less people would do this if anonymous accounts weren't possible.
This. This alone is reason enough to keep anonymity. I get that maintaining some level of civility is desirable. And I get that real names are one way to accomplish this. But I think discarding anonymity would create as many problems as it solves.
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Conflicting Traffic please advise.
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