Instructor trying to get real-world experience

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Flightgame
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Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Flightgame »

I am a Flight Instructor trying hard to impart practical knowledge to my students. But sometimes I feel that my lack of real-world flying experience is crippling me. Wondering if there would be any way in which I could do some back seat flying / right seat flying (in a single pilot environment where there is a free right seat ?) so that I can actually understand the reality better.

Seniors, please help.
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trey kule
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by trey kule »

I would not be to concerned about the real world implications for teaching students.

The objective, at their level is to instil them with a solid grounding in knowledge and flight fundamentals. When they finish up, regardless of the path they choose, if they have the fundamentals, they will easily adapt to any changes.

My experience from dealing with fresh CPLs is that their instructors were so busy trying to give them the airline experience, they kind of forgot to teach then the fundamentals.
Do a great job on teaching to those basic objectives, and you will be doing your students a great service.

Opinion, others may vary
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Last edited by trey kule on Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by ahramin »

I agree with Trey Kule, however more flying experience is never a bad thing. Where are you located Flightgame?
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by PilotDAR »

But sometimes I feel that my lack of real-world flying experience is crippling me.
I appreciate your opening your mind to this concern - it is real, and I have experienced it a number of times with instructors with whom I have done airplane test flights over the years. The extreme examples of this to me were two different Class 1 instructors at a well known flying club, each, during different flights, asking me to "show them how I did that" while flying a 172 within its limitations. Then one asking me to do something outside the limitations, which I declined. I realized that each of these instructors simply were not confident with this skill. (Example; side slipping in to make the "spot" for a practice forced approach)

So flying with other pilots is a great idea, with two cautions: You may not want to be aboard someone else's plane while they say "watch this", that can go poorly, if they exceed their personal skills. And, many of the experiences you really would like to learn from are those which a wise pilot never wants to go through again. So, the best you can do is to listen to their advice, and take it to heart, without asking to share in a scary or risky experience [again].

As Ahramin wisely points out, it would be useful to your objective if you indicated where you are....
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by photofly »

The extreme examples of this to me were two different Class 1 instructors at a well known flying club, each, during different flights, asking me to "show them how I did that" while flying a 172 within its limitations.
Please remember that the classes of instructor refer to teaching experience, not flying skill. A class 1 instructor rating is awarded for - and a badge of success in - ab-initio teaching. I think your expectations are a bit wide of the mark if you think a pilot with decades of experience such as yourself should have nothing to show to a younger pilot, whatever their qualifications.

The most constructive thing you could do would be to get an instructor rating yourself!
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by PilotDAR »

Please remember that the classes of instructor refer to teaching experience, not flying skill. A class 1 instructor rating is awarded for - and a badge of success in - ab-initio teaching.
Fair enough. Though, I would hope that an instructor who has reached the "top" so to speak, of the classes, is proficient (though not necessarily expert) in flying all of the maneuvers described as normal procedures in the type that they commonly fly, and instruct in.

Hence I commend the OP for the original inquiry, it shows an awareness of the skill/knowledge/experience gap. We can all learn something from other pilots. As long as what is being learned is within good airmanship and the limitations, knowledge should be shared.
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by rookiepilot »

Isn't this the thread on how messed up the model is.

Exhibit A: Instructors teaching students how to stay alive in all kinds of weather relating to IMC conditions, who've never themselves logged a single minute in IMC.

The answer on this site: "They'll pick that up as First Officer somewhere".

Brilliant.

Defend that practice.
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:55 am Isn't this the thread on how messed up the model is.

Exhibit A: Instructors teaching students how to stay alive in all kinds of weather relating to IMC conditions, who've never themselves logged a single minute in IMC.

The answer on this site: "They'll pick that up as First Officer somewhere".

Brilliant.

Defend that practice.
Again, the correct response for people who have that kind of experience to step up to the plate and offer to instruct. You don't even need an instructor rating to teach for an instrument rating. Step up, or quit bitching. I'm surprised I have to say that to you of all people, being the poster child for "don't criticize a business until you've tried to run one."
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by PT6-114A »

It depends where the student might end up. If a young pilot finds her/him self up north in a single Cessna now flying in 3 miles and clear of cloud or SVFR and has never been flying in those conditions the learning curve and stress is very high!
I had an old instructor take me out and do circuits in 3 miles and like 800 feet one day yes you have to ask for the special VFR from the tower but we were the only ones out there. You are close to the airport you know the area. Think one day we were out it was about 1 1/2 miles. Then we did a trip away from the airport where we had 3 to 5 miles 1000 to 1500 foot ceilings. Again to another airport and route I (we) knew well. We did lots of flying slower (flaps 20) doing 180 deg turns to get used to just how much room you needed and not descend in the turn. Again start high and practice your way down to lower alt. Just flying low level in general things look a lot different from 1000 agl or clear of cloud. you still need to think about good engine out spot. Towers and other tall things out there.

Look for other surfaces to land on. Grass, Gravel. There is a lot to be learned about operating on gravel.

My first trip cut loose was in a 206 from CET4 to CYQH and back. was early spring and I found some snow showers along the way I was very happy to that have not been the first time out in lower conditions. The new area and plane were stressful enough.

Now if a student was to go right into a right seat job then ya as another poster said "They'll pick that up as First Officer somewhere" but for now the good days are on hold and one does not know where they may find them selfs.

I flew with lots of guys right out of collage in the right seat and asked them what the lowest vis and. Ceiling that had been out in and was almost never less than 10 miles and 2000 feet. That’s a great disservice to someone who could be asked to do a trip at say 5 miles and 1000 feet. Now before you say it. YES if your not comfortable doing the trip don’t go. I AGREE 100% but why not lower that stress on that pilot and fill a little more of there bag of experience before they have to use some of there bag of luck.

Anyway hope this is helpful. Stay safe.
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:49 am
Again, the correct response for people who have that kind of experience to step up to the plate and offer to instruct. You don't even need an instructor rating to teach for an instrument rating. Step up, or quit bitching. I'm surprised I have to say that to you of all people, being the poster child for "don't criticize a business until you've tried to run one."
Assuming that it is a problem, then that's a possible solution, but not realistic. Someone making over 100 dollars/flight hour is not going to work for 30 dollars/flight hour. Some might, the majority won't.

The more realistic solution would be that TC mandates certain experience levels for certain ratings. Eg you need an ATPL, or XX hours of IMC flight before you can instruct IFR. That would force FTUs to hire experienced people, which they can't find initially, which results in higher wages until you find suitable candidates.

Changes like that start with raising awareness. Complaining on avcanda is a possible first step for that. A certain amount of bitching is required to achieve success.
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by photofly »

Assuming that it is a problem, then that's a possible solution, but not realistic. Someone making over 100 dollars/flight hour is not going to work for 30 dollars/flight hour. Some might, the majority won't.
If a job is beneath you then don't bitch about someone else who doesn't consider it beneath them does it.
digits_ wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:45 am Changes like that start with raising awareness. Complaining on avcanda is a possible first step for that. A certain amount of bitching is required to achieve success.
Raising awareness? You're on the happy pills today. Awareness with whom, exactly? Seven people on the internet? That'll do a lot.

Bitching on AvCanada is a useful outlet for people with too much time on their hands (myself included) and prevents those people from doing actual harm elsewhere, but mostly achieves nothing other than impressing other people who have too much time on their hands. If you want to achieve change, run for parliament, or lobby your MP.
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:49 am
rookiepilot wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:55 am Isn't this the thread on how messed up the model is.

Exhibit A: Instructors teaching students how to stay alive in all kinds of weather relating to IMC conditions, who've never themselves logged a single minute in IMC.

The answer on this site: "They'll pick that up as First Officer somewhere".

Brilliant.

Defend that practice.
Again, the correct response for people who have that kind of experience to step up to the plate and offer to instruct. You don't even need an instructor rating to teach for an instrument rating. Step up, or quit bitching. I'm surprised I have to say that to you of all people, being the poster child for "don't criticize a business until you've tried to run one."
LOL. Fair enough.

Maybe I got in a mood, after I posted on the training thread a couple of interesting situations -- for the benefit of new pilots, and the response is to pick apart my decisions with the attitude "you shouldn't be out there".

LOL again.

After I got my IFR I took the initiative, and spent a fair bit of time right seat with some very experienced pilot on several trips, shared expenses, even flew from the right seat in IMC, and asked a million questions about safe operations, weather, everything. Some of this was from "hanging out at Dar's clubhouse" -- idea. I was a total knowledge sponge.

Maybe if a some FTU's offered a highly experienced pilot at a premium rate for some training, it would improve Student's preparation.

I'd certainly pay up for it, for recurrence, whatever.

FTU's stop selling on price. Not everything needs to be Costco or Walmart!
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:50 am
Assuming that it is a problem, then that's a possible solution, but not realistic. Someone making over 100 dollars/flight hour is not going to work for 30 dollars/flight hour. Some might, the majority won't.
If a job is beneath you then don't bitch about someone else who doesn't consider it beneath them does it.
I don't think anyone here is bitching about the low time instructors taking the job. It's not even about FTUs paying lower wages to new instructors. They are bitching about the system which allows this to happen. Big difference.
photofly wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:50 am
digits_ wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:45 am Changes like that start with raising awareness. Complaining on avcanda is a possible first step for that. A certain amount of bitching is required to achieve success.
Raising awareness? You're on the happy pills today. Awareness with whom, exactly? Seven people on the internet? That'll do a lot.

Bitching on AvCanada is a useful outlet for people with too much time on their hands (myself included) and prevents those people from doing actual harm elsewhere, but mostly achieves nothing other than impressing other people who have too much time on their hands. If you want to achieve change, run for parliament, or lobby your MP.
This topic might encourage more than 7 people to write their MP. It's little things that could possibly result in change. If it gets repeated enough, eventually someone might pick it up and do something with it. A few topics a month about this, combined with a possible future accident attributed to lack of instructor training, and change will happen.
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by photofly »

I want some of what you're on :-)
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:52 am Maybe I got in a mood, after I posted on the training thread a couple of interesting situations -- for the benefit of new pilots, and the response is to pick apart my decisions with the attitude "you shouldn't be out there".
Unfortunately, one cannot guarantee to be acknowledged a hero, not even in one's own thread. Doesn't mean it's not worth posting.
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:08 am
rookiepilot wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:52 am Maybe I got in a mood, after I posted on the training thread a couple of interesting situations -- for the benefit of new pilots, and the response is to pick apart my decisions with the attitude "you shouldn't be out there".
Unfortunately, one cannot guarantee to be acknowledged a hero, not even in one's own thread. Doesn't mean it's not worth posting.
The belief is the only genuine learning that can really happen is as a fuzzy cheeked FO genuflecting at the feet of a grizzled old Captain.

I will only ever fly as a GA pilot, and I wander beyond the circuit. Amazing as that sounds.
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:55 am Exhibit A: Instructors teaching students how to stay alive in all kinds of weather relating to IMC conditions, who've never themselves logged a single minute in IMC.

The answer on this site: "They'll pick that up as First Officer somewhere".

Brilliant.

Defend that practice.
I will. What exactly is wrong with learning from your captain instead of your instructor? On the job training is the norm in every profession on Earth. I presume nobody is putting anyone with no IMC experience even in the right seat in large aircraft with hundreds of passengers, let alone a medium with dozens. There is only so much that can be taught in artificial training scenarios and I see nothing inherently wrong with learning from there on the job.
digits_ wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:45 am
photofly wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:49 am
Again, the correct response for people who have that kind of experience to step up to the plate and offer to instruct. You don't even need an instructor rating to teach for an instrument rating. Step up, or quit bitching. I'm surprised I have to say that to you of all people, being the poster child for "don't criticize a business until you've tried to run one."
The more realistic solution would be that TC mandates certain experience levels for certain ratings. Eg you need an ATPL, or XX hours of IMC flight before you can instruct IFR. That would force FTUs to hire experienced people, which they can't find initially, which results in higher wages until you find suitable candidates.
The problem here is that flight training is already prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of people. I am quite certain this arrangement results in a good number of presumably very talented pilots never entering the profession in the first place, simply because the cost of training puts it out of reach. The arrangement we have now in Canada is to have the lowest paid pilots teaching the very basic skillset required to fly, and hopefully, employers providing the more specialized training.
photofly wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:50 am Bitching on AvCanada is a useful outlet for people with too much time on their hands (myself included) and prevents those people from doing actual harm elsewhere, but mostly achieves nothing other than impressing other people who have too much time on their hands.
Oh, I'm not so sure about that. A couple of recent discussions here have lead to some very illuminating lessons and demonstrations for me. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but people complaining about weak spots (rightly or wrongly) in the flight training regimen has certainly helped me.

What I know for sure is that Canada needs more instructors like Flightgame, who recognize the limits of what they are able to teach, and seek out ways to ameliorate that weakness (and by no means do I say that to criticize any instructors reading this).
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:05 am I want some of what you're on :-)
A pilot colleague of mine once got contacted by a fairly higher up lobbyist, during the whole flight time discussion. Said colleague was looking for more input on some possible improvements that could be made. I made a short list of my own suggestions, and I relayed some alternatives I read about here on AvCanada.

Did it make a difference? I don't know. But it can have more importance than just some online ramblings.


(which is why I find it such a shame that the usability of the website has taken such a nosedive)
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by photofly »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:17 am...
You had me at "ameliorate".
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Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by valleyboy »

Instructing is a hot subject for me. I will go out on a limb here and make a bold statement. For the most part,because of experience levels and poor teaching practices the quality of instruction is not as good as it was when most civilian instructors were mustered out military circa 50's and 60's.

I know things have changed but for ab-initio pilot training there has been a movement to have less concentration on stick and rudder skills. Twenty five hours to solo is absurd. Also, back then, all pilots learned in conventional geared aircraft and they certainly are not the fire breathing dragons as perceived today. People were soloing in as little as 5 hours and in a tail dragger at that. Yes, less congestion and no radios required but stick and rudder skills worked on from day one and concentrated on until solo. From then on a combination of solo and dual instruction and a private licence at 35 hours. I know all past history and times change. Just saying ---

Fast forward to today and most instructors are there just to build time and leave. Flight instruction needs to become a viable option as a profession, meaning being well paid enough with benefits that one could make a lifetime career as an instructor.

To do this training and qualifications to become an instructor needs a large upgrading, like an actual licence instead of an endorsement. Instructors also need courses and education on how to instruct in the air and on the ground. Like a teacher's college for pilot/instructors I think these kind of standards are needed to give students the tools to enjoy and fly safely.

We need to get back to actual flying skills for initial learning and add the other in a more efficient manor. It's become the "flight bag" generation. :wink:
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