Instructor trying to get real-world experience

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, I WAS Birddog

digits_
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3337
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by digits_ »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:17 am
I will. What exactly is wrong with learning from your captain instead of your instructor? On the job training is the norm in every profession on Earth. I presume nobody is putting anyone with no IMC experience even in the right seat in large aircraft with hundreds of passengers, let alone a medium with dozens. There is only so much that can be taught in artificial training scenarios and I see nothing inherently wrong with learning from there on the job.
Oh yes they are. It's very common in Europe. But the concern is not about those highly controlled multi crew environments. The concern is with the small operators hiring pilots for their first job, and them ending up in IMC conditions. This could be due to their own poor decisions, unforecasted weather, pressure from the operator or whatever reason. These pilots still learn on the job, but the difference is, if they fail at learning quickly, they -and their passengers- could die.

If you get hired at an average small 702/703 operator without IMC experience, the first time you'll experience IMC will be by yourself.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
tsgarp
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:18 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by tsgarp »

trey kule wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:17 pm I would not be to concerned about the real world implications for teaching students.

The objective, at their level is to instil them with a solid grounding in knowledge and flight fundamentals. When they finish up, regardless of the path they choose, if they have the fundamentals, they will easily adapt to any changes.

My experience from dealing with fresh CPLs is that their instructors were so busy trying to give them the airline experience, they kind of forgot to teach then the fundamentals.
Do a great job on teaching to those basic objectives, and you will be doing your students a great service.

Opinion, others may vary
x 2
---------- ADS -----------
 
DirtyDashDriver
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 12:00 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by DirtyDashDriver »

tsgarp wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:21 am
trey kule wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:17 pm I would not be to concerned about the real world implications for teaching students.

The objective, at their level is to instil them with a solid grounding in knowledge and flight fundamentals. When they finish up, regardless of the path they choose, if they have the fundamentals, they will easily adapt to any changes.

My experience from dealing with fresh CPLs is that their instructors were so busy trying to give them the airline experience, they kind of forgot to teach then the fundamentals.
Do a great job on teaching to those basic objectives, and you will be doing your students a great service.

Opinion, others may vary
x 2
+3

The problem with "operational knowledge" is that it is often limited in scope, and it takes experience in that operating environment to know how to apply it safely and even more experience to know how to teach it so the student doesn't go and kill themselves stretching that knowledge. I've also seen too many students come into various different operations (703, 704, and 705) and then try and fly a Cessna 172, Navajo, King Air, or Dash-8 like an A320 or B747 because that was what the instructor taught. I've also seen it the other way where the student showed up without a certain level of knowledge that should have been taught because the licence or rating required it, but the instructor didn't teach it because "it's not on the flight test" or "we don't do that type of flying here." Plus, what one commercial operator does another would baulk at because they don't operate in the same operating sphere. So even if you try and obtain operational knowledge, it is still limited and thus a disservice to the student (who could walk away thinking all operators do x, y, and z).

The licences are the foundation under which on-the-job training builds. Someone above mentioned exposure to Special VFR conditions, and I agree. Training towards the licence should include training to the edge of what the licence permits.

What I would do is contact other flight schools and find out what different types of exercises they do with similar aircraft (e.g., minimum radius turns, costal reversal turns, low visibility/cloud circuits, cold weather tenting, hot weather operations) and integrate those into a well-rounded training plan.

Always remember that what is routine and boring for you is possibly at the maximum of what your student can absorb, and anything extra will lead to a negative training experience.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5380
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Flightgame wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:46 pm I am a Flight Instructor trying hard to impart practical knowledge to my students. But sometimes I feel that my lack of real-world flying experience is crippling me. Wondering if there would be any way in which I could do some back seat flying / right seat flying (in a single pilot environment where there is a free right seat ?) so that I can actually understand the reality better.

Seniors, please help.
"practical" knowledge is applied theoretical knowledge. In the context of an FTU there is much to be gained by simply being curious. Ask yourself a lot of "why" questions. Why does the master switch have 2 sides, why is the aileron on the C 172 curved up at the outboard sections. Why is 1.3 Vso the calculated final speed, When is the best time to check the fuel tanks for contamination. The preceding list came form a 20 second stream of consciousness. There are a 1000 things you can ask the why question about and all serve to provide the foundational understanding for "operational" experiences that you experience.

When I was a new instructor at a big flying club all the other instructors bolted for the door as soon as there last student finished or it started raining. I practically lived at the airport. As a result when the AME's found something weird and wonderful I was there to see it and ask questions. When there was a maintenance test flight I was there and when some of the private owners went flying I went along and went to new airports. A few were excellent pilots that taught me some good stuff, most were OK and one was terrifying, but it was all good experience. The opportunities were there for other instructors but none of them took advantage.

Just going someplace new is valuable. I find it sad many instructors with hundreds of hours of instructing have only been to 6 or 7 different airports in their whoel flying carreer.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Kejidog
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:55 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Kejidog »

Wow. This thread drifted faster than a few of the first crosswind landings i did. I will speak from my experience only. I did my ppl at a local ftu. I think i went through 4-5 instructors in my 6 months of flying. One was good one was mostly excellent and two were down right awful. I was highly motivated and absorbed as much info from them as i could. I arrived prepared and studied as much as they told me to be ready to fly. I also augmented it by hours of internet reading and podcast type stuff. I still was only as good as what they taught me. Was I safe? Safe enough to fly way with my PPL. Did i feel confident in what I learned? No not really.

The OP has a valid point on what they are trying to accomplish. I wish them well but be careful when flying with other pilots. Some may put their brain in neutral knowing they have a competent instructor in the seat beside them. I did something like that on my trip through the rockies this summer. My preparations were not as thorough as i normally do because i knew the guy beside me was making the decisions. Granted i hired him but i felt after we started on the flight that i was behind the whole way to Calgary. Not having the frequencies and the procedures down solid made me feel not in control as i would have liked. This also taught me a lot as well so there’s that.

Wanting to be better makes for a good teacher. I commend you on this. Now if only i could get my kid’s grade ten math teacher to want to improve her teaching and herself in general it wold be pretty sweet.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by rookiepilot »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:24 pm

"practical" knowledge is applied theoretical knowledge. In the context of an FTU there is much to be gained by simply being curious. Ask yourself a lot of "why" questions. Why does the master switch have 2 sides, why is the aileron on the C 172 curved up at the outboard sections. Why is 1.3 Vso the calculated final speed, When is the best time to check the fuel tanks for contamination. The preceding list came form a 20 second stream of consciousness. There are a 1000 things you can ask the why question about and all serve to provide the foundational understanding for "operational" experiences that you experience.

When I was a new instructor at a big flying club all the other instructors bolted for the door as soon as there last student finished or it started raining. I practically lived at the airport. As a result when the AME's found something weird and wonderful I was there to see it and ask questions. When there was a maintenance test flight I was there and when some of the private owners went flying I went along and went to new airports. A few were excellent pilots that taught me some good stuff, most were OK and one was terrifying, but it was all good experience. The opportunities were there for other instructors but none of them took advantage.

I've lived my whole life with a curious nature and insatiable desire to learn. It's opened amazing opportunities for me. Can't imagine any other way.

Can't be taught, though.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
RedAndWhiteBaron
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:55 pm
Location: In the left seat, annoying my instructor

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:07 pm I've lived my whole life with a curious nature and insatiable desire to learn. It's opened amazing opportunities for me. Can't imagine any other way.

Can't be taught, though.
+1

I've mentored in another career. You can fix a lack of experience. You can't fix lazy or stupid.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I will dance the sky on laughter-silvered wings.
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3415
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by PilotDAR »

I practically lived at the airport.
Is a more important aspect than new pilots realize. I too, lived at a couple of airports, and would be there rain or shine. So, when something unplanned came up, I would be there. If no one else was there to get involved, I was. It presented me with many interesting opportunities, and I learned.

That said, my learning kicked into a higher gear when I started flying non club airplanes, including one that I bought. Though I will not endorse flying a plane beyond your skill, or its limitations, I did find that the club rules (fair enough, they did own the plane!) still limited me (no grass runways, for example). Once I could fly more to the limitations of my increasing skill, and the plane, rather than conservative club rules, I did broaden my skills. I'm not knocking club rules, I guess they have to cater to the lowest common denominator - their planes, their rules. My plane, I learned more!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
RedAndWhiteBaron
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:55 pm
Location: In the left seat, annoying my instructor

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

PilotDAR wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:30 pm A a more important aspect than new pilots realize. I too, lived at a couple of airports, and would be there rain or shine. So, when something unplanned came up, I would be there. If no one else was there to get involved, I was. It presented me with many interesting opportunities, and I learned.

That said, my learning kicked into a higher gear when I started flying non club airplanes, including one that I bought. Though I will not endorse flying a plane beyond your skill, or its limitations, I did find that the club rules (fair enough, they did own the plane!) still limited me (no grass runways, for example). Once I could fly more to the limitations of my increasing skill, and the plane, rather than conservative club rules, I did broaden my skills. I'm not knocking club rules, I guess they have to cater to the lowest common denominator - their planes, their rules. My plane, I learned more!
You also risked more. Fortune favors the bold.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I will dance the sky on laughter-silvered wings.
ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 6206
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by ahramin »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:24 pm"practical" knowledge is applied theoretical knowledge. In the context of an FTU there is much to be gained by simply being curious. Ask yourself a lot of "why" questions. Why does the master switch have 2 sides, why is the aileron on the C 172 curved up at the outboard sections. Why is 1.3 Vso the calculated final speed, When is the best time to check the fuel tanks for contamination. The preceding list came form a 20 second stream of consciousness. There are a 1000 things you can ask the why question about and all serve to provide the foundational understanding for "operational" experiences that you experience.
Fantastic advice.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 6206
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by ahramin »

Kejidog wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:53 pmWow. This thread drifted faster than a few of the first crosswind landings i did.
Keep in mind the originator of the thread posted once and then disappeared. That's usually the sign of a wind up artist disappointed in the lack of stupid responses.
---------- ADS -----------
 
challenger_nami
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:31 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by challenger_nami »

ahramin wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:59 pm
Kejidog wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:53 pmWow. This thread drifted faster than a few of the first crosswind landings i did.
Keep in mind the originator of the thread posted once and then disappeared. That's usually the sign of a wind up artist disappointed in the lack of stupid responses.
OR Maybe, unlike the rest of us, he does not have too much free time on his hand to be aimlessly browsing the forum .... pointing to self :mrgreen:



.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flightgame
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:40 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Flightgame »

Back online ! Wow, so many responses. Thanks everyone. Letme go through this one by one. 🙂
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flightgame
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:40 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Flightgame »

trey kule wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:17 pm I would not be to concerned about the real world implications for teaching students.

The objective, at their level is to instil them with a solid grounding in knowledge and flight fundamentals. When they finish up, regardless of the path they choose, if they have the fundamentals, they will easily adapt to any changes.

My experience from dealing with fresh CPLs is that their instructors were so busy trying to give them the airline experience, they kind of forgot to teach then the fundamentals.
Do a great job on teaching to those basic objectives, and you will be doing your students a great service.

Opinion, others may vary

Thanks !

By fundamentals, do you mean basic flying skill, knowledge or airmanship ? Where you think fresh CPLs/ Multi IFRs lack
the most? (common)
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flightgame
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:40 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Flightgame »

ahramin wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:25 pm I agree with Trey Kule, however more flying experience is never a bad thing. Where are you located Flightgame?
Hi, I have PM'd you :)
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flightgame
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:40 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Flightgame »

PilotDAR wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:46 am
. And, many of the experiences you really would like to learn from are those which a wise pilot never wants to go through again. So, the best you can do is to listen to their advice, and take it to heart, without asking to share in a scary or risky experience [again].

As Ahramin wisely points out, it would be useful to your objective if you indicated where you are....
[/quote]

Thanks. I never thought about actually ending up with a totally unsafe pilot. Will be careful. And Great advise. Thanks.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flightgame
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:40 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Flightgame »

PilotDAR wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:20 am
Please remember that the classes of instructor refer to teaching experience, not flying skill. A class 1 instructor rating is awarded for - and a badge of success in - ab-initio teaching.
Fair enough. Though, I would hope that an instructor who has reached the "top" so to speak, of the classes, is proficient (though not necessarily expert) in flying all of the maneuvers described as normal procedures in the type that they commonly fly, and instruct in.

Hence I commend the OP for the original inquiry, it shows an awareness of the skill/knowledge/experience gap. We can all learn something from other pilots. As long as what is being learned is within good airmanship and the limitations, knowledge should be shared.

+1 👍🏻
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flightgame
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:40 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Flightgame »

PT6-114A wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:24 am It depends where the student might end up. If a young pilot finds her/him self up north in a single Cessna now flying in 3 miles and clear of cloud or SVFR and has never been flying in those conditions the learning curve and stress is very high!
I had an old instructor take me out and do circuits in 3 miles and like 800 feet one day yes you have to ask for the special VFR from the tower but we were the only ones out there. You are close to the airport you know the area. Think one day we were out it was about 1 1/2 miles. Then we did a trip away from the airport where we had 3 to 5 miles 1000 to 1500 foot ceilings. Again to another airport and route I (we) knew well. We did lots of flying slower (flaps 20) doing 180 deg turns to get used to just how much room you needed and not descend in the turn. Again start high and practice your way down to lower alt. Just flying low level in general things look a lot different from 1000 agl or clear of cloud. you still need to think about good engine out spot. Towers and other tall things out there.

Look for other surfaces to land on. Grass, Gravel. There is a lot to be learned about operating on gravel.

My first trip cut loose was in a 206 from CET4 to CYQH and back. was early spring and I found some snow showers along the way I was very happy to that have not been the first time out in lower conditions. The new area and plane were stressful enough.

Now if a student was to go right into a right seat job then ya as another poster said "They'll pick that up as First Officer somewhere" but for now the good days are on hold and one does not know where they may find them selfs.

I flew with lots of guys right out of collage in the right seat and asked them what the lowest vis and. Ceiling that had been out in and was almost never less than 10 miles and 2000 feet. That’s a great disservice to someone who could be asked to do a trip at say 5 miles and 1000 feet. Now before you say it. YES if your not comfortable doing the trip don’t go. I AGREE 100% but why not lower that stress on that pilot and fill a little more of there bag of experience before they have to use some of there bag of luck.

Anyway hope this is helpful. Stay safe.

I have done some SVFR stuff with my students. But to be frank, when I'm on a non IFR rated plane, I dont feel so comfortable to push the student to find his way all by himself. I do help them. And its mostly 5 mins to get back into the airport from the PA. And I dont feel so comfortable in hanging out in that WX for long either. That extra pressure thinking about a case of not being able to get a clearance to get back into the CZ altogether..
---------- ADS -----------
 
sjatana
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:02 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by sjatana »

Flightgame wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:46 pm I am a Flight Instructor trying hard to impart practical knowledge to my students. But sometimes I feel that my lack of real-world flying experience is crippling me. Wondering if there would be any way in which I could do some back seat flying / right seat flying (in a single pilot environment where there is a free right seat ?) so that I can actually understand the reality better.

Seniors, please help.
I am not a senior by any means ... though being a dad makes me feel like one lol.

I commend you first of all for thinking this way and from what I gather you want what is best for your students.

Remember, as a flight instructor busting around the pattern we are building the foundations and fundamentals of flying. We must lead by example in pilot decision making, commitment to safety and flight discipline. If you can instill those practises as a flight instructor while teaching you're already doing more for that student than you can imagine...

How one approaches flight instructing can make or break a student - that in itself is a leadership responsibility that you shouldn't take for granted.

Keep up the great work.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Flightgame
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 25, 2020 8:40 pm

Re: Instructor trying to get real-world experience

Post by Flightgame »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:52 am
photofly wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:49 am
rookiepilot wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:55 am






After I got my IFR I took the initiative, and spent a fair bit of time right seat with some very experienced pilot on several trips, shared expenses, even flew from the right seat in IMC, and asked a million questions about safe operations, weather, everything. Some of this was from "hanging out at Dar's clubhouse" -- idea. I was a total knowledge sponge.

Thats so awesome!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”