"Digital" 406 MHz ELTs to Be Mandatory - TC

[ahramin]

I would need a $10,000 CAD (I have priced it- with a used GPS)

Maybe get someone else to price it for you. 75 USD.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/223

[ahramin]

Would not all the above depend on the specific model and its capabilities? Or are these capabilities mandated?

Yes, it depends on the model. For the sake of the argument I'm only talking about the capabilities of units under $1000.

[Kejidog]

I would need a $10,000 CAD (I have priced it- with a used GPS)

Maybe get someone else to price it for you. 75 USD.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/223

75 bucks US? That’s like over 100 cad. I don’t have that kind of cash. I own a plane, man!

Ah not sure if that usb connection is TSO’d or approved for certified aircraft position reporting or will work but thanks for the offer. Do you need my address to mail it to me?

[ahramin]

I would need a $10,000 CAD (I have priced it- with a used GPS)

Maybe get someone else to price it for you. 75 USD.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/223

Ah not sure if that usb connection will work but thanks for the offer.

Ah ACK E-04 Install Manual, publicly available on their website:

For aircraft which do not have GPS data available, the unit can be interfaced with a low cost GPS data receiver, such as the Garmin GPS 18PC which is available for less than $75.00.

[photofly]

Ah not sure if that usb connection is TSO’d or approved for certified aircraft position reporting or will work but thanks for the offer.

Doesn’t need to be; it’s not designed for airplanes, so it’s not subject to parts sourcing rules.

You’d want the DB9 12v version, anyway, not the USB. It’s even WAAS enabled.

[ahramin]

From the Garmin page I linked to above:

Choose Your Connection Type

The GPS 18 is offered in three different cable configurations. All three versions of the GPS 18 come complete with non-volatile memory for storage of configuration information, a real-time clock and raw measurement output data for sophisticated customer applications.

GPS 18 PC — has DB-9 pin serial connector with 12-volt cigarette lighter adapter; can output data in NMEA 0183 format (industry standard) or proprietary Garmin format.
GPS 18 USB — has A-style USB connector, compatible with USB 2.0 and 1.1 full-speed hosts; can output data in Garmin proprietary format only.
GPS 18 LVC — has bare wire for connection to a variety of applications; can output data in NMEA 0183 format (industry standard) or proprietary Garmin format; provides a pulse-per-second logic-level output with a rising edge aligned to within 1 microsecond of UTC time.

[Kejidog]

Wow. That is a really impressive option. I never new such a dongle existed. That is way better than my upgrade path!

[ahramin]

What are you presently using for navigation? Do you have a GPS in your aircraft?

[Kejidog]

What are you presently using for navigation? Do you have a GPS in your aircraft?

No i am VFR. Not even a VOR nav. I use Foreflight and a Sentry Gps/adsb in. Looking to do the big dollar upgrade. Gps/nav/com
Mode S, new audio panel. But i want to do it in small bites and keep flying vfr while i do it. Finish with a G500 AP. Then get my IFR after all this is done. Basically a two year plan. Or longer. Had some family members needing some Finincial support. I don’t want to get too deep in debt to pay for this so i’ll do it as i can afford to. Looking to source parts in canada if i can. Install costs are fixed but avionics can perhaps be purchased used.

Long winded reply to basically a yes or no question. Into the clementine margaritas tonight

[Kejidog]

Ah not sure if that usb connection is TSO’d or approved for certified aircraft position reporting or will work but thanks for the offer.

Doesn’t need to be; it’s not designed for airplanes, so it’s not subject to parts sourcing rules.

You’d want the DB9 12v version, anyway, not the USB. It’s even WAAS enabled.

Photo,
I did see that after i looked with more than a passing glance. But wouldn’t that gps source for an elt need some sort of certification? I mean a LED bulb needs one to install in my plane I am a bit confused. I should read the cars more. I learned two things tonight.

[ahramin]

What are you presently using for navigation? Do you have a GPS in your aircraft?

No i am VFR. Not even a VOR nav. I use Foreflight and a Sentry Gps/adsb in. Looking to do the big dollar upgrade. Gps/nav/com
Mode S, new audio panel. But i want to do it in small bites and keep flying vfr while i do it. Finish with a G500 AP. Then get my IFR after all this is done. Basically a two year plan. Or longer. Had some family members needing some Finincial support. I don’t want to get too deep in debt to pay for this so i’ll do it as i can afford to. Looking to source parts in canada if i can. Install costs are fixed but avionics can perhaps be purchased used.

Long winded reply to basically a yes or no question. Into the clementine margaritas tonight

It's going to be much more expensive going in small bites, you might want to save up first and get it all done in one shot. By the time you have saved the money, there may be some better cheaper stuff on the market anyway.

[charrois]

I seem to recall awhile ago COPA talking about pushing for ADS-B out equipped aircraft to possibly reduce the dependence on ELTs altogether. Does anyone know what happened to that thought?

There's no question that 406 MHz ELTs are superior to 121.5 in that the signal isn't anonymized, and may contain GPS position information. But both depend on a device and associated antenna working after a crash... exactly the moment when it is least likely to work. This is precisely the opposite of fail-safe; in fact, they are fail-deadly designs.

ADS-B out, on the other hand, allow tracking right up to the moment of impact. Admittedly, it doesn't send out a special signal if it detects an impact, so SAR is reliant upon a Flight plan expiring or a flight itinerary contact getting the process underway. But it is far more likely that a crash location can be detected by your last known ADS-B position report if you have the equipment for that.

I'm not a fan of making ADS-B out with diversity performance mandatory, but for those aircraft which have it, if the Aireon equipment on Iridium satellites are picking up your position, SAR will know where you are, no matter how remote that is.

I think 406 MHz ELTs are an improvement over 121.5 ones, but still a move in the wrong direction, encompassing the same fundamental flaw that ELTs have always had, in that they are required to work after an accident to be of use. What would have been much better from a technological standpoint would be to have designed ADS-B out with an optional flag triggered by a G switch. If it survived a crash, it could report the incident along with your location. If it didn't survive, at least a last known location would be available.

In the meantime, mandated or not, all these devices are for a pilot's own safety. I fly with a 406 ELT and diversity performance ADS-B transponder for what I consider the best of both worlds. Though that's my choice.

Dan

[photofly]

Ah not sure if that usb connection is TSO’d or approved for certified aircraft position reporting or will work but thanks for the offer.

Doesn’t need to be; it’s not designed for airplanes, so it’s not subject to parts sourcing rules.

You’d want the DB9 12v version, anyway, not the USB. It’s even WAAS enabled.

Photo,
I did see that after i looked with more than a passing glance. But wouldn’t that gps source for an elt need some sort of certification? I mean a LED bulb needs one to install in my plane I am a bit confused. I should read the cars more. I learned two things tonight.

I haven’t done a CAR major/minor modification analysis for this case, but changing a part (lamp) on a plane is different to adding a part.

Airworthiness notice B037 is a helpful template.

[boeingboy]

While I think I that the quoted price is reasonable for that model from Aircraft Spruce. I would need a $10,000 CAD (I have priced it- with a used GPS) installed panel mount gps to send it a signal. I have no gps in my aircraft.-yet

Not true Kenji....Most 406 units including the $800 ACK unit that was linked earlier (https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/a ... elt406.php) will accept position info from almost any of the newer Garmin handheld GPS units like the Area 660. The 660 for example has both NEMA 0183 and RS 232 outputs.

For a few bucks more the Airtex 345 unit is very nice at $840 and will also accept input from handheld units...there is even an option kit that includes a PLB and high intensity light. (https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/a ... -17449.php)

Lots of inexpensive options out there.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Right. Let's all get rid of them then, based on your experience. Homing pigeons are the way forward. Keep one in the tail plane - if your airframe disintegrates the pigeon will be freed and can fly for help.

Plus they'll keep the spiders down.

Only an idiot would have that takeaway from my post. You seem really defensive whenever anyone speaks poorly of a 406 ELT...how come? They're obviously better than the 121.5 ones - but they're not the miracle cure you seem to think they are.

[photofly]

Sorry, where does anyone call any kind of ELT a miracle cure? I just think it’s hilarious the knots that people will tie themselves into to justify still having a 121.5 ELT. Don’t buy a 406 unit, I really don’t care, but don’t pretend there’s a good reason.

[AirFrame]

The 406 isn't live and logging that location all the time so it has it handy in the event of an activation. When you crash, the ELT wakes up as your panel-mount GPS dies... The antenna is gone, the plane is on fire or sinking, you've shut off all the electrics before the impact, etc. Your 406 won't get a location in that situation. The only way to ensure GPS location availability is for the GPS to be integrated with the 406.

Incorrect. In the armed position, the GPS position sent from the aircraft avionics is constantly recorded and the last known position will be sent.

This is news to me. Okay, I stand corrected.

Does this mean you have to arm and disarm the 406 on every flight, or do you leave it armed for 5 years and it has the battery capacity to continuously record position for that long (and then still have enough power to broadcast an alert when you crash 4 years and 11 months after the battery was changed)?

[photofly]

You leave it on "arm" whenever it's installed.

The GPS interface also provides power to the electronics in the ELT. There's no battery drain. This is not difficult information to find. For example, for the ACK ELT:

Screen Shot 2020-11-30 at 10.20.53 AM.png (322.39 KiB) Viewed 550 times

[yvesg]

What is meant by “recreational operator”?

What is the difference between “private operator” and “recreational operator”?

Yves

[ahramin]

Recreational Operator = CAR Part VI without Subpart 604
Private Operator = CAR Part VI including Subpart 604