ink argument

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therubberjungle
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ink argument

#1 Post by therubberjungle » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:14 pm

Hi everyone,

The other day someone asked me about the use of blue ink in an aircraft journey log book. Apparently it is "Transport's Rules", according to the questioner, that require the use of black ink only.

I didn't have a definitive answer. The last time I discussed this with a TC inspector was back in '91, and that was about one of my student's personal logbook. My student like to use ink of any color, including purple, green and brown (didn't know they made brown ink). The TC inspector said it was okay as long as the ink was permanent.

Back to the point: what is the requirement for ink colour in 705 JLBs? Anyone know if there's a CARS reference?

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#2 Post by cyyz » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:25 pm

A Logbook can be any color and even in crayon if you want, it's yours. If you use the clouds on your CV it'll be more appropriate that you use the crayons in your logbook.

I haven't seen any CARs on Journey Logs being in black, but all the entries I've seen were in black and black ink is what the OPP, RCMP and TC want you to use for your applications for, Security and Airport Passes. Even when I filled out the form for a rating, they said, "nice, now do it in black."

Secondly, Banks, lawyers etc, would prefer you to use Black so you can photo-copy it and it'll show up 100% clearly, unlike blue or pink.

Professionalism... It's upto you...
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#3 Post by Brewguy » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:34 pm

The CARs do not specify "approved" colours of ink. The individual is just being, well, a bit of an ass. That said, I can understand why an aircraft owner or the management of an oprator may prefer a single ink colour - as they may think it looks better.
Technical Records - General

605.93 (1) Every person who makes an entry in a technical record shall
  • (a) make the entry accurately, legibly and in a permanent manner;
    (b) enter the person's name and signature or employee identifier or, where the record is kept as electronic data, enter the person's user code or an equivalent security designation; and
    (c) date the entry.
(2) Where the owner of an aircraft keeps the technical records for the aircraft as electronic data, the owner shall ensure that the electronic data system that is used complies with Section 103.04 and the Aircraft Equipment and Maintenance Standards.

(3) The owner of an aircraft shall ensure that all of the necessary measures are taken to protect the technical records for the aircraft from damage and loss.

(4) Every person who brings into use a new volume of an existing technical record shall make the entries relating to the preceding volume that are necessary to ensure that an unbroken chronological record is maintained.

(5) Subject to subsection (6), where a person alters an entry on a technical record for the purpose of correcting the entry, the person shall do so by striking out the incorrect entry in such a manner that the underlying information remains legible, and inserting the correct entry together with
  • (a) the date of the alteration;
    (b) the reason for the alteration, if it is necessary to clarify why the alteration was made; and
    (c) the person's name and signature or employee identifier or, where the record is kept as electronic data, the person's user code or equivalent security designation.
(6) Where a correction referred to in subsection (5) is being made to a technical record that is maintained as electronic data, the correction shall be made in a manner that does not render the original data inaccessible.
I know pilots in the forces who have been made to re-write all of their entries in a new logbook because they used the "wrong colour" ink. But again, this is just one of the piss-off games that superiors play on their subordinates in the military. Not dissimilar to an army NCO ripping the sheets off a soldiers bed and making them remake it.

However, unless someone at TC comes up with an alternate CARs reference to this one, your only responsibility is to ensure that you "make the entry accurately, legibly and in a permanent manner".
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#4 Post by oldtimer » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:36 pm

Official TC documents should be in black ink, except the newer photocopiers will do an acceptable job with blue ink so it is not quite as critical.
Do not use any other colour.
Many CP's request blue ink for company documents such as type exams because they show up black in a photocopy and it is easy to tell the difference between an original and a photocopy. Some companies require a signature in blue just for that reason.
With TC and log books, do not use a rollerball pen. The ink will bleed through and make a big mess on the backside of the page.
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#5 Post by therubberjungle » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:37 pm

Thanks cyyz,

I was asked about this whole ink thing because of some on-going argument. The whole "transport's rules" angle kinda confused me.

I agree totally that black ink photocopies much better than some blue inks (and looks better IMHO), but now I'm wondering if there is an actual legal requirement for the use of black ink.

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#6 Post by wait...what did he say? » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:40 pm

I'm a big fan of the Gel pens... the one i got is called a Jetstream... writes big fat letters, but doesnt bleed through. And it writes like a dream...ohhh!
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#7 Post by water wings » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:44 pm

cyyz wrote:A Logbook can be any color and even in crayon if you want, it's yours. If you use the clouds on your CV it'll be more appropriate that you use the crayons in your logbook.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

i made the mistake before i realized one could actually make a living at this game of using sparkly pens in my logbook...now i have to present that 1st logbook for the ATPL!! :oops: i guess the fact that i dropped it the water isn't good either, eh?

I have since started a pure "interview" logbook that shall remain pristine in Papermate medium tip blue ink. i like blue. so there.
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#8 Post by golden hawk » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:49 pm

Do you have "the write stuff"? :?
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#9 Post by Hedley » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:30 pm

I have heard of Transport laying charges because entries in a journey log were pencil, not pen, but I am unaware of any regulation as to the required colour.

I just did a site-specific google search of tc.gc.ca and nothing turned up.

CAR 401.08 says that you must maintain a personal log, but it does not specify that the entries must be in ink, let alone any specific colour.
The corresponding standard, 421.08 does not specify either.

As far as I know, you could make entries in your personal log in any colour of ink, or pencil, or with a crayon, or marker. It is your log, after all.

Long before everyone here was born, it was conventional that "green ink" in a log implied combat time, but that's pretty irrelevant now, since Canadians aren't allowed to fight - we "keep the peace", whatever that means :roll:
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#10 Post by chancellor » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:51 pm

Never heard of any requirement other than the employer wanting everything the same color so it didn't look like the dogs breakfast. Had a captain once that would almost freak if he seen you using a black pen, I don't know if it was superstition or the color of the devil. Thought it was kinda weird though. :lol:
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#11 Post by Goodwrench » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:48 pm

I seem to remember something from back in my early days regarding F.A.A. requiring the use of black ink in any logbook. As far as Transport Canada, I only remember red ink being not acceptable.
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#12 Post by Hedley » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:31 am

These days, red means unserviceable, like a red parts tag. I have seen parts spray-painted red to indicate u/s. I would not use red in a logbook.

Green ink references for combat time in pilot's personal logbooks:

http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/greeninkwp_1.htm
Green Ink in your log book is combat time
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/pr ... ran=176489
The air wing saw considerable combat action. Potts, making her first cruise, used ``a lot of green ink'' in her logbook that recorded details of missions flown over Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://dukecunningham.org/phorum/read.p ... =894&t=894

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1531

I wouldn't use green ink, either, in a logbook but that's just me.

Personally, I wouldn't use a mixture of rainbow-coloured ink in a logbook. I try to use only blue, so that when someone photocopies something, it's obvious which is the original. Photocopiers these days have no problem with blue ink.
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#13 Post by ahramin » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:28 am

We are talking about your personal log book here. You can use any ink you want.

But as many are saying going for an interview with blue black and purple entries might not be a good thing. When i was keeping paper books it was all black ink.
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Re: ink argument

#14 Post by Brewguy » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:40 am

therubberjungle wrote:The other day someone asked me about the use of blue ink in an aircraft journey log book. Apparently it is "Transport's Rules", according to the questioner, that require the use of black ink only.
Actually, the original question was about aircraft journey logs, not personal logs. However, when it comes to ink colour - the answer is the same. As indicated in my earlier post, when it comes to Technical Records CAR 605.93 only requires the entry to be accurate, legibly and in a permanent manner. Purple, green, red, orange - as long as it's permenent.

However I personally agree with what a lot of people have said here, that sticking with a single colour is more professional looking. As for photocopying, most darker colours of ink (including red) will show up quite well on a modern digital copier.

I personally use blue - and even try to stick with the same pen so that all of the shades of blue are the same. Maybe a bit over the top, eh? :oops:
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#15 Post by TG » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:27 am

I had the same gentle argument with one TC inspector in mid 90's.
It was up to us but he recommended to fill the aircraf's logbook with "blue" ink.
And when I asked why, his only answer was:

"You can see the difference between entries and black lines of the logbook"

I guess he was reffering the possiblility of having someone writting too wide and overlapping lines.

:|
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Last edited by TG on Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#16 Post by Hedley » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:28 am

I personally use blue
Me too. The reason why, is that around 10 years, ago, when I was an Authorized Person at an FTU, I had to make "certified true copies" of stuff like birth certificates.

So, I would photocopy the birth certificate (or whatever) and sign the photocopy in BLUE ink as a "certified true copy" so that if someone photocopied the "certified true copy" it obviously a "non-certified" copy because my signature was in BLACK, and I never used black pens, only blue pens.

I know, over the top, too :oops: These days, someone can colour-photocopy, but at least you've raised the bar a teeny bit.

P.S. I didn't know people frowned upon using blue inks in logbooks. Goes to show, you learn something every day.
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#17 Post by Driving Rain » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:49 am

Hedley wrote:
I personally use blue
P.S. I didn't know people frowned upon using blue inks in logbooks. Goes to show, you learn something every day.
I know people who've had shit fits over whether the toilet paper comes off the back of the roll or off the front. :roll:
Lets face it officious anal retentive types gravitate towards the government jobs like TC. If the use of blue or black ink was "real rule" it would say so :?
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#18 Post by neophyte » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:22 pm

Too funny, although the post was serious in nature.

I have witnessed pilots throw out every blue pen in site so that the journey logs get completed with the remaining black pens. Good news for Staples.

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#19 Post by Flybabe » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:44 pm

I've seen journey logs in black and blue, don't think it matters.

I like black - BIC Roller Ball, fine tip. Again personal preference! 8)
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#20 Post by cyyz » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:24 pm

Flybabe wrote:I've seen journey logs in black and blue, don't think it matters.
It doesn't. Don't think(pretty sure, unless you're Cat or Hedley) you'll get ramped and get your OC pulled for having it in multi colours...

But some people, are, well, anal.
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#21 Post by oldtimer » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:57 pm

As I, and others have indicated, for the most part it does not matter shit what colour ink is used in log books as long as it is permanent. If someone got violated for using pencil TC must have thought it was because the culprit was altering the books. The same for some legal documents where a blue pen is required to differentiate between an original and a copy.
Anal retentives can always come up with all sorts of conspiracy theroies or plots. If you write in a legal document in red ink, someone will claim it is written in the blood of some poor helpless sap that just wanted to go to the store to buy some milk and was attacked by vampires. If it is written in green, it is a secret signal to Al Quida to begin attacks on America. If it is written with a blue rollerball, someone has developed a paper that will react with the special ink and when you come to work Monday morning, the ventilation system is contaminated with anthrax virus and girls will be turned into boys with overgrown chin whiskers and their boobs will shrink to an A cup. All very nast stuff. Better be safe and not sign anything at all. Let the government create a new department to run tests on the ink and paper to see if it is safe to use. Sort of like the gun registry department. That is my humble opinion anyways.
Cheers and don't chew on you pen, you may have a violent sex change or something.
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Re: ink argument

#22 Post by taff » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:40 pm

When doing my apprenticeship, I was told to use only black ink when signing all aircraft documents. The reason being, that black ink is the only colour ink that doesn't run when immersed in water (unlike blue). Therefore, black ink is the only ink that can be classed as permanent. We did a little experiment and proved this to be so. So to comply with the Car's the ink must be black on all aircraft documents.
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Re: ink argument

#23 Post by Heliian » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:30 pm

taff wrote: So to comply with the Car's the ink must be black on all aircraft documents.
That is not correct.

The marks have to be permanent. The colour is irrelevant. It's essentially folk lore at this point. I stick to blue or black, whatever is handy. Eraseable pens, even black, are not allowed. I saw an inspector rub a page with an eraser just to make sure, everything was on paper back then though.
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Re: ink argument

#24 Post by helicopterray » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:24 pm

Before CARS, we had the Air Nav Orders and the Air Regulations Manual. The Air Regs used to state the use of black or blue pens only.
This was deleted with the introduction of CARS.
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Re:

#25 Post by co-joe » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:33 pm

TG wrote:I had the same gentle argument with one TC inspector in mid 90's.
It was up to us but he recommended to fill the aircraf's logbook with "blue" ink.
And when I asked why, his only answer was:

"You can see the difference between entries and black lines of the logbook"

I guess he was reffering the possiblility of having someone writting too wide and overlapping lines.

:|

You laugh but as someone who frequently does paperwork while flying I sometimes find it difficult to stay within the lines perfectly. And I do find that since the lines are black, blue ink is easier to read.
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