Instructing vs Ramp

[JustHappyToBeHere]

Hi all,

I'm asking a question I have seen asked before but am interested in any and all advice based on my current situation. I have completed my CPL and completed my instructor ground school, as well as my first instructor training flight. I have a very healthy line of credit and had planned on using the remaining amount of it for my multi-IFR and not an instructor rating. I had contemplated this for a while before and decided I would give the instructor rating a try. I really feel I would enjoy instructing and would work at completing my multi-IFR while instructing. The large price tag on the instructor rating is making me quite wary though, as I would still need to complete my multi-IFR after. I am curious if anyone has any opinion or advice as to whether I would be better off to carry on with the instructor rating or use this money to complete my multi-IFR and apply for a job working ramp at Perimeter to get my name in the system, with the goal of being a pilot there. I am currently at 210 hours, I have a university degree and no commercial flight experience.

I know it can never be guaranteed and no one really knows but I would hope to spend less than a year on the ramp before moving into the flight line. I believe the instructor rating would be worth the money if I were to be on the ground for over a year. I also realize this question should be answered by myself and only myself but I am very curious to hear if anyone could provide me with some guidance.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and considering helping out an eager, young aviator. It is much appreciated.
Cheers

[702pipeliner]

I mean there's pros and cons to both. Instructing gets the hours needed in the book but doesn't always give you great experience which you talk to quite a few people it can become evident when you later on go to Sims or training with other people if you have just done circuits for 1500 hours.

That being said if it comes to a money question that's something else.

If you had money to do both I would say do the MIFR and the Instructor rating then do a little instructoring till you can get a flying job with them.

Since it's one or the other I would recommend getting the MIFR since you are already working the ramp at perimeter. Mainly because you have all the requirements and working towards a seat there. The work can suck on the ramp but makes you learn a lot about the goings on of the companies and the captains you will soon fly with.

With just an instructor rating and no MIFR your kinda destined to be an instructor for life until you get the money again to do IFR.

That being said thats my opinion, I was faced with a similar choice a few years ago. All the best with whatever you choose. And congratulations on the CPL

[ellinas]

If I were you, I would go up North and bug as many float operators as you can to offer you employment as a dock/ float pilot for next year. If I had to do it over again that’s what I would have done. You will learn so much being a pilot up North whether float or land that you’ll never forget or regret.
My two cents
I’ll never forget my time up North (not nearly enough)

[yowflyer23]

If I were in the same position, it would depend on how much the LOC was worth and what my living situation was. If the LOC couldn't cover both the instructor rating and the multi-IFR and I had bills to pay, I'd use the LOC to pay for the multi and go ramp somewhere. I think that between the class 4 rating and the group 1 IFR rating, the IFR rating is more useful for your overall career progression if your intent is to eventually fly in the 705 world. You will not make a heck of a lot as an instructor, especially at a local FTU (colleges are the exception) and, unless you're living for free at your parents' place, money will be tight. It would take ages to save up for that multi-rating on a class 4 salary. If your LOC can cover both and you can afford to live on the instructor salary, I'd go the instructor route and do the multi after. You'll be flying right off the bat and you'll be gaining valuable PIC experience and with the multi rating, you'll probably be able to snag a King Air position somewhere or maybe even go straight to the regionals depending on pace of the post-covid rebound.

[‘Bob’]

A multi IFR is an added expense, but you know what else is? Renting an airplane for another 50 hours to get your PIC so you can qualify for PICUS and eventually upgrade. Also time, being a year or maybe even more with no flight time.

Forget idiots who say that it’s “1500 hours in the circuit”. “Throwing bags to become a flaps operator” for the alternative is probably more accurate.

These instructors come all nervous because they think a turboprop is a fire breathing dragon because of guys who push the fat down and use a ruler with markings too close together, and then after six months they’ve settled in and are ready for the upgrade ahead of the guy who’s been there for two years.

Both legally because they have the ATPL and PIC time, and practically because they have the pragmatism and decision making skills that you simply can’t get sitting right seat with a safety net and PICUS falls woefully short of.

[780Pilot]

I currently instruct with people who were doing ramp and decided to get their class IV at the same time, have since left ramp. At the end of the day, 95% of ramp position are just a promise of a flying job. Might be a year might be 3, you simply don't know with a lot of them. In my opinion your better off getting a class IV and stacking PIC. At the end of the day PIC is a big deal especially down the line with a different company for a left seat upgrade. For the most part they don't care where you got it so long as you have it. Instructing - 703 - 704/05 is not a bad progression at all. Realistically you can do this in a timeline of 3-4 ish years and you were flying the whole time vs ramp. Compare any entry level job to instructing and in my view it doesn't compare.

At the right school you can get PIC (day and night), PIC X (especially that night needed for the ATPL), a bit of IFR time, and even some twin time if you stick around for a bit. Being able to do some post secondary at the same time was a big advantage for me right out of high school. Living around a big city or home isn't a bad thing either initially. Of course the pay is far from ideal and we all know this.

Pipeline, Skydiving, or right seat 703 all have their issues which to me are bigger then what faces an instructor and their future career progression.

[RockSalty]

One thing worth considering is that if you instruct at the right school, you might be able to get a discount on your multi/IFR training

[PilotDAR]

I did the ramp route, and it worked for me. I'm not saying it's the better way, but it pointed me the direction I wanted. That was because I met people who helped me get a leg up, and opportunities, and the boss would pull me off the ramp from time to time for other jobs, including flying something somewhere. So you're wise to consider it. I see "the ramp" as a two function job, in the eyes of the boss: Getting some ramp work done, and, allowing a potential pilot to show their attitude toward work. 'Kinda reminds me of the old theater saying: There are no small roles, only small actors". It's okay to do a job which does not require all of your skills - for a while.....

[Clearprop913]

I personally started out on the ramp. It truly is what you make of it and the connections you build during your time in that position. Love it or hate it but I found in most cases its very much a carrot dangling in front of your face to see how much crap you can take and for how long. If you want that right seat bad enough... its yours. After a year on the ramp and no end in sight I made the decision to pursue the Instructor rating and have no regrets. At the end of the day there's no right answer, just what works best for you.

[robshelle]

If you don't have any real prospects to use your multi IFR after getting it (and I suspect that might be the case for a bit until COVID is over assuming you are a low experience pilot), I would suggest getting the Instructor and teaching first. Your school might just have a simulator that you can use for free so you can practice without expense. And doing your Mulit/Multi IFR at 200 hours is a lot harder then doing it at 500-750 hours with instructing experience. With the experience you will just be able to absorb the information and understand it so much better, and be able to get ahead of the faster, more complex aircraft much quicker.

My 2 cents for whatever it is worth.

robshelle

[EPR]

Here's what I did..(Probably not very relevant today, but for what it's worth..In the span of 3 years, 98-01)...as a new comm.Pilot.. Photo-Flight /Instructor/Banner Towing/VFR scenic flying/VFR Charter flying..all before my Multi-IFR. I then Spent (3 weeks in YWG at the Polo Park Inn...lol ,doing my initial multi-IFR ,minimum time..succesfully, (and then 911 hit followed by SARS), Left the industry to earn some money..lol, moved North in 03, worked the ramp for 3 years even though I had a 1000 hours PIC in the log-book..which didn't matter at that time unfortunately, got my "check-out" and have been making "bank" ever since! (#NotAirlines)! I totally enjoyed my time on the ramp, learned a lot (it helped not being a total tool and having some "life experience skills" to supplement my lack of "Commercial Aviation experience"..but have seen absolute tools totally succeed! So yah, work hard...and the world is your oyster!

[sjatana]

I found instructing to be a rewarding and satisfying job. The best job in aviation that I have ever had to gain experience and move up. If you like people, teaching is a worthwhile endeavor.

Though there's nothing wrong with working the ramp as an entry-level position and paving your path that way. All roads lead to Rome ultimately.

I did what you suggested in your post - completed the CPL + Instructor rating and finished the MIFR later on with at least 800ish hours under my belt. Since you already finished the instructor GS, why not finish the rating? I see the regionals are calling folks back and I know of instructors that went back to their original FTU's to work. I imagine there will be a vacuum to fill in the upcoming months...

[RoAF-Mig21]

A multi IFR is an added expense, but you know what else is? Renting an airplane for another 50 hours to get your PIC so you can qualify for PICUS and eventually upgrade. Also time, being a year or maybe even more with no flight time.

Forget idiots who say that it’s “1500 hours in the circuit”. “Throwing bags to become a flaps operator” for the alternative is probably more accurate.

These instructors come all nervous because they think a turboprop is a fire breathing dragon because of guys who push the fat down and use a ruler with markings too close together, and then after six months they’ve settled in and are ready for the upgrade ahead of the guy who’s been there for two years.

Both legally because they have the ATPL and PIC time, and practically because they have the pragmatism and decision making skills that you simply can’t get sitting right seat with a safety net and PICUS falls woefully short of.

I can't comment, because I've never been an instructor, but flying B200s, B1900s and LR35s (as an F/O) in Nunavut & rest of Canada was a bit more than just being "a flap" operator. It was great multi crew, IFR experience that gave me the job I wanted (regional airline). I also stuck around to get some multi pic turbine, which was useful.

My advice to him would be to get that multi-crew, multi engine turbine / jet experience if his goal is to go to the airlines. I wish I would have gone sooner, because seniority is important. I believe 703/704 experience is more relevant than instructing experience. Sure, doing both would be ideal, but then you're sacrificing years of seniority that can affect pay and schedule.

Just my thought...

[TeePeeCreeper]

I have a very healthy line of credit

A word of advice, your line of credit will never be “healthy”. It’s a liability.

Pay as you go without it, network and take the first reasonable employment offer that comes your way.

Wishing you all the best,

TPC

[ayseven]

Instructing is a job as a professional pilot. A ramp job can be done by anybody. I won't go into more details than that but suffice to say instructing launched my "career". Many I worked with as instructors are at air Canada or retired from.

[digits_]

You can often tell if your captain used to be an instructor or not. Instructing is much better than the ramp route, assuming you have a choice.

[pild04]

A multi IFR is an added expense, but you know what else is? Renting an airplane for another 50 hours to get your PIC so you can qualify for PICUS and eventually upgrade. Also time, being a year or maybe even more with no flight time.

Forget idiots who say that it’s “1500 hours in the circuit”. “Throwing bags to become a flaps operator” for the alternative is probably more accurate.

These instructors come all nervous because they think a turboprop is a fire breathing dragon because of guys who push the fat down and use a ruler with markings too close together, and then after six months they’ve settled in and are ready for the upgrade ahead of the guy who’s been there for two years.

Both legally because they have the ATPL and PIC time, and practically because they have the pragmatism and decision making skills that you simply can’t get sitting right seat with a safety net and PICUS falls woefully short of.

I always thought the PICUS program had the 150 hours PIC prerequisite too per CARs 421.11 (4)(a). Our interpretation of the regulation is wrong. I just got confirmation from TC that there is no requirement in place.

[J73]

I personally instructed and really enjoyed it. You improve your flying skill alot instructing. Don’t listen to these other people saying you do a million circuits and learn nothing. Being an instructor means putting your students first no matter what. I got my ATPL done quickly and went straight into a Dash 8 after instructing while staying in the area I wanted to live in. The transition to the Dash was super easy. You gain lots of multi tasking skill instructing, you’re always thinking ahead and quickly changing lessons to fit the conditions. Go wherever your heart takes you. Just don’t let any grumpy old pilot tell you your path was the wrong one

[Eric Janson]

You can often tell if your captain used to be an instructor or not. Instructing is much better than the ramp route, assuming you have a choice.

You can certainly tell if your colleague has worked up North - will show in their attitude and aircraft handling.

Things I've learned operating in the North have kept me out of trouble flying large jets. Also a useful background for my current job (Global ACMI) where you could be sent anywhere with minimal support.

[PostmasterGeneral]

You can often tell if your captain used to be an instructor or not. Instructing is much better than the ramp route, assuming you have a choice.

You can certainly tell if your colleague has worked up North - will show in their attitude and aircraft handling.

Things I've learned operating in the North have kept me out of trouble flying large jets. Also a useful background for my current job (Global ACMI) where you could be sent anywhere with minimal support.

Agree 100%. When I'm flying with someone with lots of time up north, the atmosphere is much more "relaxed". Still professional, but you can tell if the you know what hits the fan, you're both going to have no problem working the issue. On the other hand, I find the guys I fly with that have lots of instructing time, tend to be much more "uneasy." (Perhaps nervous is a better word) when issues arise.