Canada in talks to spend $10B on stealth jets

[teacher]

Canada in talks to spend $10B on stealth jets
$150M already invested in U.S.-led program to develop next-generation manned fighter

David Pugliese
The Ottawa Citizen

Friday, February 03, 2006

Canada is in negotiations that could eventually lead to the multibillion-dollar purchase of the latest stealth fighter being built for the American arsenal.

Canada and seven other nations involved in the talks will likely be in a position to tell the Americans by the summer how many of the high-tech Joint Strike Fighters they will need and by when, an official with Lockheed Martin, the plane's manufacturer, said yesterday.

Canadian Defence Department and Lockheed officials stress that no commitment has been made to buy the Joint Strike Fighter, also known as the F-35. But several years ago, the Canadian government invested $150 million U.S. into the aircraft program, one of the first nations to do so.

Successful completion of the latest round of negotiations, expected by the end of the year, would lay out Canada's involvement with the aircraft over the next 39 years and act as a roadmap for any future purchase. Privately, some aerospace officials acknowledge it is highly unlikely that Canada would not buy the new generation fighter.

Yesterday, representatives from about 100 Canadian aerospace and defence firms met with Lockheed Martin officials in Ottawa to receive details about the aircraft program and learn about ways they could participate in its production.

"Right now, the Canadian requirement is about 2017 for first airplane deliveries," said Tom Burbage, Lockheed's general manager for JSF program integration. "Some time in advance of that there will be an individual negotiation with the Canadian government on the purchase of airplanes."

Any decision to purchase the JSF will be costly. Australia has tentatively earmarked $9 billion U.S. to buy 100 of the planes, but could cut that in half due to rising costs, according to Australian defence officials quoted in a recent issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology, a major U.S. industry publication.

Documents obtained by the Citizen estimate the cost to replace the existing fleet of CF-18 fighter aircraft by 2020 would be $10.5 billion Cdn.

The current negotiations are aimed at producing a memorandum of understanding covering Canadian participation in the JSF program from 2007 to 2046, the estimated end of the flying life for the plane. The plane is expected to be flying in U.S. operations starting around 2012.

Michael Slack, the Department of National Defence's director of continental material co-operation, said because of the sensitive nature of the ongoing negotiations, he can't get into details on what the agreement would cost taxpayers.

Asked whether a successful outcome of the negotiations would move Canada further down the path to purchasing the plane, he said: "Perhaps. But much will be determined in the period from 2007 to 2013 when decisions are going to have to be made about replacement of (our) F-18 aircraft."

The Canadian military, for instance, will have to decide what type of mix it wants among manned fighter aircraft and remote-control drones, he said.

Some defence analysts have noted that sophisticated aerial drones, outfitted with various sensors and weapons, could be the future direction of military flight and might eventually replace piloted fighter aircraft.

Mr. Burbage said there is considerable Canadian content on JSF at this point. That participation by Canadian firms is based on the idea that Canada will eventually buy the plane and would have to be reconsidered if that does not happen.

Mr. Burbage noted Canada has obtained more than twice the amount of money it invested in JSF through the awarding of industry contracts for work on the plane.

But defence analyst Steve Staples warns that the push to acquire the JSF for Canada is being driven more by defence industry needs than a requirement for the country's military.

"It seems like special interests in the arms industry are driving the development of defence policy," said Mr. Staples, who is with the Polaris Institute, a left-leaning think-tank in Ottawa. "By the time we're ready to buy this thing it will be highly questionable whether military aircraft will even need pilots in the cockpit."

The idea behind JSF is to produce in large quantities a high-tech stealth aircraft that, at a time of soaring costs for military equipment, is relatively affordable. More than 3,000 fighters will be built for the U.S. and Britain, but sales could run as high as $1 trillion when purchases by U.S. allies such as Canada are considered.

Last year it was revealed that JSF can be used in non-traditional fighter aircraft roles, such as jamming communications or using the energy from its powerful radar as a weapon to fry or disrupt electrical systems on the ground. "It's a major player with an electronic attack capability very unique to the aircraft," U.S. Brig.-Gen. Charles Davis, deputy of the JSF program office, said at one briefing.

Mr. Slack said the memorandum of understanding will detail Canada's involvement with the aircraft should it be decided to buy the plane. "Think of it as a roadmap," he explained. "If you elect to buy these are the rules you would use," he said.

http://www.canada.com/components/print. ... f946495334

[Dust Devil]

cool but 2017 is quite a ways off. plenty of time for a liberal government to cancel the contract pay the fees then when they realize we need them to order them up again.

[TorontoGuy]

So the Liberals were right. The Tories do have a stealth agenda.

[Yoyoma]

cool but 2017 is quite a ways off. plenty of time for a liberal government to cancel the contract pay the fees then when they realize we need them to order them up again.

So the Liberals were right. The Tories do have a stealth agenda.

[Over the Horn]

The real question is would Canada buy a single engined fighter? we have a long history of purchasing twins for obvios reasons though it would be nice to see some new equip. of some kind

[Canus Chinookus]

Funny yes, but you do realize that the Tories haven't had time to be a part of this yet? Maybe it's their turn to cancel!

[TheCheez]

Canus ya, but the timing of this article is going to make people think the conservatives are all military minded and dumping huge sums of money into it etc etc.

Talks with the us over JSF have been going on for awhile.

[Gurundu the Rat]

Weren't the tories the ones that cancelled the Avro Arrow?

[WJflyer]

And JSF ain't looking so good right now:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/200 ... /index.php
Brits are threatening pullout over technology transfer and rising prices.

[costermonger]

I could see the JAS-39 being considered if the F-35 option doesn't go anywhere.

[Northern Skies]

^ Me too.

[Northern Skies]

^ Me too.

[Clodhopper]

The real question is would Canada buy a single engined fighter? we have a long history of purchasing twins for obvios reasons though it would be nice to see some new equip. of some kind

CT-114 Tutor, anyone?

We could use something new, anything right now is better than our "well-maintained" CF-18's. I say we contact Russia about some Su-27's...that'll throw a wrench in the works with the US.

[grimey]

Any idea what the cost of the Gripen is relative to the F-35? I'd assume it's substantially cheaper, but I haven't seen anything on how much the export version would cost. Do any of our aerospace companies contribute equipment to the Gripen?

[EI-EIO]

Surely the first question is - what is the go-forward requirement?

Silly naive old me...

[costermonger]

Any idea what the cost of the Gripen is relative to the F-35? I'd assume it's substantially cheaper, but I haven't seen anything on how much the export version would cost. Do any of our aerospace companies contribute equipment to the Gripen?

According to Wiki, the Gripen cost $25,000,000 per a/c in 1998, versus an estimated cost of $37,000,000 per a/c for the simple version of the F-35 (not V/STOL, not carrier capable).

Of course, you've got to factor in the difference between the aircraft - the Gripen would've been an excellent candidate if we started looking for a replacement 5 years ago, but at this rate, by the time we'd see the first JAS-39 in Canadian service it'll already have been 20-25 years since the Gripen's first flight.

[gryphon]

CT-114 Tutor, anyone?

We could use something new, anything right now is better than our "well-maintained" CF-18's. I say we contact Russia about some Su-27's...that'll throw a wrench in the works with the US.[/quote]

CT 114 Tutor was designed and built for the RCAF as a jet trainer only. Other countries have used it for defense/attack.

Fighter/intercepter had requirement for twin engine due to vast regions they were to patrol.

[WJflyer]

CT-114 Tutor, anyone?

We could use something new, anything right now is better than our "well-maintained" CF-18's. I say we contact Russia about some Su-27's...that'll throw a wrench in the works with the US.

CT 114 Tutor was designed and built for the RCAF as a jet trainer only. Other countries have used it for defense/attack.

Fighter/intercepter had requirement for twin engine due to vast regions they were to patrol.[/quote]

And Russian jets are notoriously maintainence heavy. I say purchase the F/A-18E Super Hornet, or the F-15E Strike Eagle.

[Clodhopper]

The way Canada does things, they may just pick up all those retired F-14's.

But seriously, I see nothing wrong with the JSF. If they even go with the simple, no-VSTOL version, they are still getting a much superior fighter to the CF-18.

[Nark]

Canada has no need for a V/STOL capable airframe (fighter/attack).
Our ethos as Marines is completely different then that of the Canadian Army or Air Force. Canada's role in NATO is different than that of the US, and further more my Marine Corps.

While the JSF is a sexy new airframe designed for all services (US inclusive) it may not tailor to other foriegn service.

The way we fought in Korea is different than the way we fought in Vietnam, and different than Desert Storm, than today in Iraq. I doubt our next war is going to be the same way we fight in today's Iraq. With that in mind, people who want the plane (JSF) need to think about how are they going to employ it, and is it the best plane for the job, or is it just a nice shinny new toy?

On a side note, could anyone tell me what the Canadian Army is trained to do? I don't mean to sound condisending, but it seems peace keeping is the only thing they are trained for. (I know there soldiers fighting in Afghanistan, doing a hell of a job too)