know it all copilots

stringbender · Post by **stringbender** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:48 am

Just wondering how people deal copilots that think they know everything.Some might be ex instructors and because they are in the right seat feel they have to give you a lesson.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:15 am

It's no easier for F/O's who fly with "know-it-all Captains"!!! That is at least as bad.....because the captains should know better....it ain't a one-way street out there kids...we all hav a job to do....fly safe!

TopRudder · Post by **TopRudder** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:38 am

I would much rather have a know-it-all beside me than a pilot who doesnt know his/her ass from a hole in the ground.

At least know-it-all's can teach you something.

Scuba_Steve · Post by **Scuba_Steve** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:50 am

Usually that 'know-it-all tendecy" only pops up when they are new and 1 - trying to impress or 2 - don't have a fucking clue..

This attitude tends to change if they do in fact not have a clue and eventually they realise it, or if they are too stupid to figure this out, get it beaten out of them by some crusty captain

no I was not a know it all co-pilot

Captain P. Nile · Post by **Captain P. Nile** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:51 am

There is a reason they call an F/O a JAFO. The ball game is the Captain's to run, so punish that know it all.

Captain P. Nile · Post by **Captain P. Nile** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:54 am

Top rudder, pull your head out of your ass. If the f/o does not know his that he is a resource, and you(the captain) are the manager, then he needs to be taught.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:12 am

P. Nile...you're not there to "punish", you're there to "guide and teach". Sure, when something untoward actually happens, it's the captain's call, but how often does that happen? Not very.
The more dangerous scenario is the new captain, just stretching his wings, and testing his limits....not the right seat newbee.
I've been doing this for a lot longer than I'll ever admit, and I can recall only two f/o's that were a slight pain...but after a couple of beers and a steak BBQ, they cme around....P.Nile, these people are not your servants. This flying thing is a team effort. There are things you can learn from the "low" time guy...open all hailing frequencies!

Captain P. Nile · Post by **Captain P. Nile** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:21 am

The low time guy has to know his place. If he-she gets into a know it all type of mentality, then the captain has to waste time and effort to teach something that should be understood. I have been faced with quite a few guys with that type of mentality, and they need to understand who wears the pants. A low time guy with attitude makes the cockpit tense. If you get into a situation, what you need is someone who understands their role, and that means how to take instructions, so that everyone survives. That is where the know it all attitude is dangerous.

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:46 am

Been face with this scenario a couple of times myself. I usually tolerate it as long as I can hoping that it is just the keenest of being new that is coming out. A lot of times that is all it is but if it gets to intolerable, I usually pick the right opportunity and right after shut down before we even leave the cockpit, we will have a little chat.

I try and keep it professional but I do get the point across that it isn't working and can't go on and some changes are needed. Usually that sorts it out, at least for a while!

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:48 am

Fortunately I've been a PIC for most of my career. There was a period that I was 2 IC for couple of years. At our company you are paired up with basically one co-pilot for the year. If you don't get along it could be a very long year.
Unfortunately I was paired up with a couple of pole hogs in my time as a co-pilot. In a two year period I was never allowed to touch the controls, not one take-off or landing. I learned a couple of important things sitting there. Treat your crew as you'd like to be treated and always be nice to your co-pilot because one day he will be a captain, perhaps your captain.

Flying an airplane is work, I hate work, so I share as much of it as possible with other crew.
One of my duties as a Captain is to mold co-pilots into first rate captains. Lots of people know more than me. I involve the co-pilots as much as possible in the decision making because I don't know everything.
Know-it-alls can be annoying, teach them the proper way to offer advice. If that doesn't work...kill them

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:50 am

P.Nile...How many co-pilots have you run across with "'tude"? Are you a crusty old fart, like me? Or are you just starting out as a captain yourself? I've only run across a couple, in like, over thirty years of doing this. Methinks, you may be mistaking "know-it-all" with a keen puppy-dog like attempts to impress you with their knowledge?? We have one of the "puppy-dog" types...they are different....

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:53 am

"Pole Hogs"....he said "pole hogs"!!!!! ROTFLMFAO!!!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:38 am

I love " Pole Hogs " , especially if she is pretty.

Cat

Captain P. Nile · Post by **Captain P. Nile** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:50 am

JAFO.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:50 am

I have dealt with no it all FO's, stupid captains, stupid FO's and have been the know it all FO. By far the worst is the ignorant captain. A know it all FO just get on your nerves, but usually doesn't comprimise the safety of the flight. An ignorant captain that does not solicite the input of his crew is a recipe for disaster.

P. Nile.
You treat your guys to "know there place", and one day you will screw up and the FO you've been teaching to "know his place" won't speak up and you will end up with a bent airplane. I unfortunatly learned this by experience (I was the FO).

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:51 am

If they really do know it all, then maybe they should have your job. It doesn't however, seem likely.

Rather than endure endless bits of non-applicable junk from buddy, challenge them. If you can't think of at least 1000 "stump the stars"-type questions, you don't belong in the left seat.

You have an ops manual sops and a cap gen don't you?

Review the young offenders paperwork and planning, and critique it like you were a TC auditor.

If buddy is determined to let you know that they know "everything", then shape what stuff they do actually learn.

I've only had two co-pilots who were determined to be as stupid as humanly possible. Out of a couple hundred, that ain't bad. If this one i shaping up to be that way, set them down with one of your check pilots for a litltle chat.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:58 am

Well, I just read a post about someone wondering why students no longer visit working pilots to chat about flying, careers etc. After reading all the above, as a student I wouldn't either. If pilots eat each other (or that is the impression you get), what would a student think they would do to them?

x-wind · Post by **x-wind** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:12 am

I do not have and Iatra yet. But I do fly with fellow up in comers fairly often. A notable occasion was a training flight for our 300nm requirement. I seriously had troubles not telling him he was off track, to watch his heading or perhaps he should make a position report.

Nothing ever became unsafe and I felt he should be learning this in his own...even if it was the hard way. Anyway, what I have noticed is that from the right seat you can monitor someone’s flying and pick out almost every deviation form a perfect flight pretty easily. I guess the key is to inquire only about the things that are more then minor mistakes.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:29 am

Reason #1 why I fly single pilot 85% of the time.... Another brain is usualy a pain in the ass.

STL

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:29 am

You think a know it all FO is bad? There's nothing worse than an arrogant, I'm the boss Captain. Not only are you fresh, green and nervous to begin with BUT you have to deal with someone making it much worse for you.

Having said that, there is no place for an arrogant and smart ass FO either. I have had many of these experiences back in my instructor days and the best way deal with them is to challenge them. Push the boundaries of their knowledge, not to put them in their place, but to show them that there is a lot to learn. They'll probably relish the challenge and strive to be even better. You never know, it may not be an act and they may be smarter than you think.

I keen, well prepared and knowledgable FO never crashed an airplane.

know it all copilots

know it all copilots

F/O

top rudder and F/O

???????????

Crusty was a clown