Canadian pilots battle fatigue (Toronto Star)

Vilk · Post by **Vilk** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:46 am

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Conten ... &t=TS_Home

Thair81 · Post by **Thair81** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:37 am

Yah, I read that article too...Doubt it will actually change anything though.

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:41 am

Quote- "Canada is known among pilot groups around the world as whores in aviation."

Couldn't have put it better myself, I just hope that people actually read this and become aware of what is going on in the industry and how much shit we as the pilots have to deal with.[/quote]

... · Post by **...** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:10 am

Well that’s nice.

However, you're right...it won't change a thing because no pilots in this
industry will stand up together as a collective unit and fight for proper
working conditions in the lower levels.

All of you aim for the Air Canada's of the world thinking there is light at
the end of the rainbow if I can just put up with the BS for now.

But guess what...starting wage at AC is 30 something thousand a
year...Jazz is even lower AND you're all working your asses off.

The shitty working conditions have now just trickled upward into your
dream job.

What you do in the present will effect your futures.

On a different note...gardening is hard work...who knew!?

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:19 am

I am Birddog wrote:Well thats nice.

Jazz is even lower AND you're all working your ass's off.

BD, I haven't flown in a month, I'm on reserve (no calls yet). I got exactly the days off I wanted, as did most guys I know. I'll say were underpaid, but we sure as hell aren't over worked.

As for the state of the industry, it is our own fault.

skycoupe · Post by **skycoupe** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:36 am

it won't change a thing because no pilots in this
industry will stand up together as a collective unit and fight for proper
working conditions in the lower levels

Gotta disagree with you there .. see the Union thread .. when a company insists on pressuring pilots to operate in unsafe conditions ie: fatique .. the employees eventually organize and DO stand up to the company .. look at CanJet.

... · Post by **...** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:59 am

...oh...umm...WELL YOU MADE ME PAY 12 STINKIN' BUCKS FOR A FIRKEN
COLD CHICKEN PLATE!!!!!

I'm really still a little pissed about that...

Carry on

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:12 am

KAG wrote:
I am Birddog wrote:Well thats nice.

Jazz is even lower AND you're all working your ass's off.

BD, I haven't flown in a month, I'm on reserve (no calls yet). I got exactly the days off I wanted, as did most guys I know. I'll say were underpaid, but we sure as hell aren't over worked.

As for the state of the industry, it is our own fault.

But lets be honest KAG.... You just joined Jazz and recently completed your line indoc. Others are now doing the same and they are flying to complete their line indoc. There are also senior guys that may be taking the flights. That is the only reason you are not being called. Air Canada and Jazz don't pay people to sit on their ass indefinitely.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:27 pm

Yeah, it's all true.....

Thing is, the "Regulator" makes noise about fatigue yet freely gives out Ops Specs for pilots to do 15 hour duty days without proper justification.
Treadmill City!

As a result, where non-reporting took place at 14 hours, it now goes over 15 ("Legally"). Canada has always had a bush league approach to pilot duty hours. It started when we all used to fly 300 a month and were macho aviators, pioneering northern flying (and future disasters.)

Still, as said, the chance of a collective action by pilots is virtually nil.

Baaa, Baaa, Baaa.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:17 pm

gr8gazu wrote:
KAG wrote:
I am Birddog wrote:Well thats nice.

Jazz is even lower AND you're all working your ass's off.

BD, I haven't flown in a month, I'm on reserve (no calls yet). I got exactly the days off I wanted, as did most guys I know. I'll say were underpaid, but we sure as hell aren't over worked.

As for the state of the industry, it is our own fault.
But lets be honest KAG.... You just joined Jazz and recently completed your line indoc. Others are now doing the same and they are flying to complete their line indoc. There are also senior guys that may be taking the flights. That is the only reason you are not being called. Air Canada and Jazz don't pay people to sit on their ass indefinitely.

Sure, I'll be honest and admit that I'll not getting paid for sitting on my ass for much longer, and ill be glad - im bored. That being said, my friends who do hold blocks, are loving life, and comments on how great the schedule is are common place. Just saying of thoses I know, were hardly overworked.

Mig29 · Post by **Mig29** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:45 pm

THis and last article on Sonic Blue from Toronto Star were very well written (to me at least) but the said thing is it won't change much, because it comes down to us, inside the cockpit and TC who should follow up and enforce these issues.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:22 pm

Good article, sad to find out that yanks max out at 900 hours along with other ICAO members...

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:39 pm

Yes very good article indeed. Good to know we are all whores now we can put the issue to rest

Hoser · Post by **Hoser** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:37 pm

Hey, at least the public is going to be made aware of it. How many people do you think would be willing to pay a $500 ticket on a 703 sched if they knew their crew was huffung back oxygen just to stay awake?

Remember, pilots coming together and starting a revolution is a great idea (ideal?) But when it boils down to money and the willingnes of people to fork it out, then something will change.

Hey, on the idealist note, what would it take for all the members of Avcanada to write to W5? A good investigative report should get some attention

Email address: whistleblower@ctv.ca
Phone number: 416-313-2494

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:50 pm

I've just met Ken Green recently and he had some interesting stories regarding this subject. Like how AC would schedule flights to be 14:55 when they knew they couldn't be done in that time just to make sure they didn't need a 4th crew member..

Really, it's not the 705 ops that have the big problems though, in my opinion. 703 just cracks me up, flying a beaver single pilot, you can do way more time than a twin otter (704) with 2 crew while doing the same basic job.. Now how is that right??? At the same time, the single pilot 703 op can fly in worse weather than the 2 crew 704. Think about it.. Stress, fatigue, shared workload, one set of eyes compared to two..

You'd think that single pilot ops would have the most strict regs rather than the most lax..

Just my humble opinion..

... · Post by **...** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:03 pm

cpl_atc wrote:
I am Birddog wrote:...oh...umm...WELL YOU MADE ME PAY 12 STINKIN' BUCKS FOR A FIRKEN
COLD CHICKEN PLATE!!!!!

I'm really still a little pissed about that...

Carry on
They forced you to buy the chicken plate?

No my stomach did. I was not expecting to have to pay for food on AC 5 years ago. It caught me off guard.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:54 am

He's right Birddy.

Doing the RIGHT thing with the WRONG company...remember that.

C-KEEP · Post by **C-KEEP** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:59 am

Here's a question then...
What about flight instructors. Say they are at work all day, they do a flight in the morning, do a night flight, drive home...I'm sure that's more than 14hrs of duty time. However, duty times don't apply because they don't fall under the 700 series.
Until....they do a sight seeing flight...then they're 700 series...and duty times apply.

Just a thought.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:06 pm

Flight instructors can do scenic flights without a 700 OC.

But, yup- the hours can be long. Luckily the aircraft tend to be fairly simple, and conditions are not always too trying.

safetywatch · Post by **safetywatch** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:52 pm

While I undersatnd the skepticism some of you have, things are going to change. Some times the wheels turn slowly, but the impacts of a series of coming lawsuits- despite the belief from some of our more cynical contributors that this is about a money grab - is going to be significant.

Transport Canada are rightly very nervous these days. Many of us are not going away and we have the money, contacts, and resources to fight this out and we will win - meaning that the small airline industry is going to change, and Transport Canada and the rest of this miserable industry will be held accountable.

There will be quiet points in the story but that is only because a large amount of data is being gathered in the background by a sizeable and diverse group of people. The Toronto Star has only released the tip of the ice berg. We have "Access to Information" requests in and once the discovery process around the lawsuits begins all will be laid bare.

Canadian pilots battle fatigue (Toronto Star)

Canadian pilots battle fatigue (Toronto Star)

Things are going to change