Nationair Crash & Website

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Joren
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#51 Post by Joren » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:07 pm

Bird Dog wrote:

Those that were there in 1991 at the old Wardair hangar when the remains of our friends were off loaded in their respective caskets from the crash must remember the distictive door siren going sounding as the doors motioned to close. Even today when I hear such a horn when any door hangar closes, it takes me back to that time. I remember witnessing the heartache on the faces of each family member, which months prior were smiles and laughter at a company Christmas party. There is nothing more devastating than watching a parent bury a child....nothing.
I'm so glad you remember that too Bird Dog. Just a small correction .... It was the old Worldways hangar, and I too will never forget that door siren. Actually, until the day I die I'll never forget standing there with my back to the door when the siren went off, and then turning round after the doors opened and seeing all those hearses lined up outside, with planes taking off and landing and good ol' Terminal 1 and 2 in the background, as dozens of us pallbearers stood waiting to load the caskets into the hearses. And then the sirens again as the doors closed. Several of us were really overcome. It was both one of the saddest moments of my life but an honor for me to carry one of my friends and co-workers on their final trip.

It provided a certain level of acceptance and was an incredible sight (from what I'm told from other attendees who were watching it all), and was a very emotional ceremony.

In true Nationair style, some Management personnel had to cast a pall on it afterwards and referred to it as a "freakshow".
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#52 Post by ... » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:57 pm

Hey Joren...I hope you're still around on this site...July 11th approaches.

Just thought I'd reach out to you...and others on here again during this anniversary.

Regards

IABD :|
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SkyWolfe
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#53 Post by SkyWolfe » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:00 pm

Hello IAB...

I remember learning about this accident in class. It is the one that always stands out in my mind. I have seen all the Maydays, and they all are terrible, but something about this one always sat on my mind in some sort of eerie way.

Many times I have tried to tell people about this accident, and unlike all the Mayday stories, they never have a clue what I am talking about.

There is a video of it somewhere... We watched it for class. I don't know if it's available to the general public.

Sorry about the losses...

Wolfie
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#54 Post by ... » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:32 pm

That's just amazing SkyWolfe. Learning this in 'aviation' class... :shock: What school? I am very impressed by the staff to include this in the learning material.

WE MUST NEVER EVER FORGET these accidents.

-----------------------break break---------------

Last night I met up with some YYZ pilots. All great, very nice, young professionals in the industry that were kind enough to invite the "old guy" out past his 9pm usual bedtime hour. :wink:

The topic of the KeyStone crash came up. I was kind of shocked a few of them didn't even know about this. For those of you that also are unaware of this...just search out "keystone" and you'll come across a slew of threads dedicated towards the topic.

It is of my opinion that a certain amount of "company culture" does have some influence in any accident. Where there is pilot error, there is sure to be a certain element of error to company culture and the way it's operated from a safety vs. $ standpoint.

People (non-aviation folk) tend to focus on the obvious, the crash itself. Professional crash investigators work backwards from the crash site. We all know this already.
SMS is supposed to have developed a proactive procedure to work towards eleminating this by having an open door policy regarding concerns before they develope into serious issues. Time will tell IF the system is working @ ALL levels.

SkyWolfe caught my attention with her post. I wish CRM training was taken more seriously in the lower levels of aviation NOT JUST IN THE AIRLINES...
It should start right from the grass roots up.

I wish there were a compilation of all the crash investigation documentaries geared toward an industry standard for CRM in a constructive inclass comprehensive positive teaching structure BEFORE ANYONE EVEN GETS THEIR PRIVATE PILOT TICKET!!!!!!

Start from the grass roots....

This is why I refuse to let Keystone crash story die. This is why I refuse to let the Nationair story die on this site.

By not promoting these types of stories for new up&coming professionals, history will repeat itself....

To the Chief pilots & Ops people in the 703 world...would you be prepared to sit in front of the families of employees you had under your employ during an aviation tribunal and state the following;

"Mr. & Mrs. XXX, although I had operational control over the airplane your son/daughter was flying....I did little or nothing to stop certain events that led up to the crash...and that's why he/she is dead...I'm sorry."

...if not, eventually....you're conscience will.

Fly safe kids.
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CD
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#55 Post by CD » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:13 pm

Here is another topic that should be taught early on...

Pilots: Stay Safe, Know Your Rights

This might be the video that Wolfie is thinking of:
* Sobering video. The 1991 fatal crash of a Nationair DC-8 is the subject of a video produced by Canada's Maintenance and Ramp Safety Society (MARSS) titled "Death of an Airline." According to one attendee at the CASS '99 conference covered in last week's issue, the 36-minute video captures "the dirty dozen" contributors to human error in action. The video deals with the laxity and oversights that led up to the 1991 crash of a Nationair DC-8 at Jeddah, Saudi Arabia that killed all 261 aboard (which contributed to the shutdown of the airline some 15 months later).
There is also another one out there, I think produced by the Discovery Channel, that looked at how the forensic investigators supported the accident investigation.
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SkyWolfe
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#56 Post by SkyWolfe » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:30 pm

There were many accidents that we were made to view, and dissect using the "swiss cheese" model.

This one we wrote an in class report on identifying each contributing factor as to "why" this accident took place and "how" it could have been prevented in our opinion.

I was with BCIT.

I agree 100% that all PPLs and CPLs should receive the CRM training IMHO. I found the training helpful... and I think I am a bit more safety minded because of it :)

Wolfie

CD, that is the video.
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Joren
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#57 Post by Joren » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:30 am

I am Birddog wrote:Hey Joren...I hope you're still around on this site...July 11th approaches.

Just thought I'd reach out to you...and others on here again during this anniversary.

Regards

IABD :|
Thanks IABD, I occasionally check in here.

What I find so interesting/maddening is that people who have lived through an experience such as what happened at Nationair go on to work at other airlines and allow the same, for lack of a better word, CRAP to go on. Or at least participate in it. I don't know, maybe they figure lightning won't strike twice?

I remember about 10 years back that Discovery channel (I think) had an episode of a program called "Forbidden Places" (or something like that) where they had discussed the Nationair crash. I wrote to them but they didn't have copies for sale.
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#58 Post by JetDR » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:47 am

I have the Video "Death of an Airline". For everyones info, it was produced by Maintenance and Ramp Safety Society, 5750 Cedarbridge Way, Richmond, BC Canada. It is titled "Human Performance in Maintenance, Series #1".
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#59 Post by ... » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:04 am

JetDR wrote:I have the Video "Death of an Airline". For everyones info, it was produced by Maintenance and Ramp Safety Society, 5750 Cedarbridge Way, Richmond, BC Canada. It is titled "Human Performance in Maintenance, Series #1".
Death of an airline...I think that is also the title of the book the president/owner Robert Obadia printed shortly afterward they closed the doors April 1st, 1993. Is it possible to upload it to say, google video?
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#60 Post by SkyWolfe » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:44 am

Some of the video is corny and cheap, but it sent shivers up and down my spine anyway.
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#61 Post by JetDR » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:44 pm

You want me to upload to Video Google, I can barely muster up the expertise to log on to my own computer let alone upload something. It is in VHS format which makes it more difficult, I forgot to add the Email address MARSS@MARSS.org.
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#62 Post by ... » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:59 pm

JetDR wrote:You want me to upload to Video Google, I can barely muster up the expertise to log on to my own computer let alone upload something. It is in VHS format which makes it more difficult, I forgot to add the Email address MARSS@MARSS.org.
VHS?!?!? BUAH HAHA...I think we'd be better off if it were in BETA... :wink:

All kidding aside...we'll get it up somehow...give me a chance to call in my video peeps.

:)
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#63 Post by Edelweiss air » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:08 pm

I am Birddog wrote:
JetDR wrote:You want me to upload to Video Google, I can barely muster up the expertise to log on to my own computer let alone upload something. It is in VHS format which makes it more difficult, I forgot to add the Email address MARSS@MARSS.org.
VHS?!?!? BUAH HAHA...I think we'd be better off if it were in BETA... :wink:

All kidding aside...we'll get it up somehow...give me a chance to call in my video peeps.

:)
That would be neat if you could get it up on google video. I looked at the Nationair website last year and again just now and like Skywolfe mentioned something about this accident is very eerie. :|
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#64 Post by RenegadeAV8R » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:46 pm

The video appears to still be available, but it is relatively expensive at $175.00 plus $25.00 for shipping.

http://www.system-safety.com/trainingvi ... irline.htm

RenegadeAV8R

JetDR wrote:I have the Video "Death of an Airline". For everyones info, it was produced by Maintenance and Ramp Safety Society, 5750 Cedarbridge Way, Richmond, BC Canada. It is titled "Human Performance in Maintenance, Series #1".
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#65 Post by OhKiE DoHkIe » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:48 am

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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#66 Post by OceansEdge » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:05 am

There but for the grace of god.....


Lest we forget.
Vicky
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#67 Post by station60 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:10 am

I had the pleasure of meeting and working with Mr. Davidge's brother. Mr. Davidge was the F/O on that fateful flight. I also flew on that same airplane in 1990 from Lahr, Germany to Ottawa.

My thoughts are always with the crew and passengers and their families.
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#68 Post by bmc » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:50 am

Kent was buddy of mine. We had too much fun, back in the days of YRB. Kent was fortunate to not only fly but eventually get left seat on C-FLFR, Bradley's old DC-3. I believe it's with Buffalo now.

LFR came from the CAF. Back in its air force days, Ken't dad flew that machine. It had real significance for Kent.

Still sad after this time.
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#69 Post by palebird » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:24 am

Was and is a very sad incident, totally preventable.. I spent more than a few years at NX but left before this happened because the writing was all over the walls..just a matter of time..that is what is so disgusting, it was allowed to continue and everyone knew about it (company culture). Now whether they chose to ignore it for various reasons or were simply too naive it does not matter because it happened and is recorded in history. What is truly amazing is how few people actually know about this accident. I believe NX was such a disgrace that the Canadian authorities have done everything possible to try and make this go away..and they have done a good job because this accident would not have happened if someone with oversight had been paying attention.
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#70 Post by G3 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:51 pm

Didn't the Fifth Estate do an entire episode on not just the accident but the "poor Maintenance Practices" and the subsequent document tampering? About 12 years ago?
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#71 Post by OhKiE DoHkIe » Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:34 am

G3 wrote:Didn't the Fifth Estate do an entire episode on not just the accident but the "poor Maintenance Practices" and the subsequent document tampering? About 12 years ago?
Affirm.

It seems all The 5th Estate has to do is use the same tape over and over again but the dubs in a different company name in the sound track everytime to cut production costs.
example: Keystone etc etc
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#72 Post by I WAS Birddog » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:24 am

21 years have passed...just bumping this thread in memory of friends lost.

Be safe out there friends.
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#73 Post by FenderManDan » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:14 pm

This was terrible, just watched it recently on "MayDay" Season 11 episode 9 (IIRC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria_Ai ... light_2120
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Re: Nationair Crash & Website

#74 Post by I WAS Birddog » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:28 pm

2013 bump in continued memory of our lost friends....
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Re:

#75 Post by b747fe » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:55 pm

Blakey wrote:Bill Allen was one of the instructors on my first Herc course and he lived just down the road from me. I think of him every time I drive past his house.

Vic Fehr was an engineer on the squadron when I got there. We flew together on many missions.

Both were true gentlemen and very professional airmen. They are still missed here too.
Bill was my room mate in an apt we shared in Mirabel. He was also a good friend. I flew with Vic on 413 and 436
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