So you're going to put Seneca grads into the right seats on your RJ's? Why just Seneca? There are other aviation colleges in Canada. I know, you did not know that. If you want to hire 250 hour pilots, (and I know, it's YOUR airline) why not hire some 250 hour guys who have actually WORKED for a living? Seems to me, you'd get a better PILOT if you hired a guy with TEN hours in the right seat of a Navajo, or King Air. A guy who had worked a dock/ramp for a year? But I would guess, there is some special flavor to a Seneca student? Why not hire a Seneca student that has worked for a couple of years? I mean, if it just HAS to be a Seneca grad? Is there some great advantage to a "puppy mill" approach to turning out "cookie cutter" pilots that I just can't see? There may be. Enlighten me.
I know, if I have to go someplace you guys fly, I'm taking the Honda!
Hey Jazz...
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
I hate to say it, but does it really matter how good a pilot they are, if all they're going to do is fly for an airline?a better PILOT
One of the Air Canada Greats (prestigious retired Captain) recently wiped the landing gear off a Maule when he tried to land it here at my airport.
I told my 14 year old kid, who has learnd to land (thank god a different) Maule just fine, that empirical evidence would suggest that he flies better than your average airline pilot. My father, a retired CF-104 test pilot, laughed and said that wasn't saying much
Re: Hey Jazz...
Amen. @#$! JazzDoc wrote: I know, if I have to go someplace you guys fly, I'm taking the Honda!
When a free man dies, he loses the pleasure of life. A slave loses his pain. Death is the only freedom a slave knows. That's why he's not afraid of it. That's why we'll win.
Doc, I am going to take an unenlightened shot at this.
First.
Some college programs emphasize skill sets that are a little different than others. Perhaps Seneca does this and it is a good fit for Jazz.
Having said that, there is also the possibility that in order to obtain right seat pilots who will work for peanuts without ever really getting a shot at the left seat for a zillion years, they are looking for a certain mentality, and Seneca students maybe fit that profile. Remeber that if you are a college and can give your graduates priority hiring it is a big draw. The downside of this is not usually really brought up in recruitment.
This approach has been tried before, and it simply has never worked. There is no doubt the modern a/c are more sophisticated and really require data entering skills from a first officer, more so than actual flying skills. Only when upgrade times come do the real flying experience and skills come into play. I predict one of two things for the future of this practive. Career FO's or a few smoking holes in the ground. Wait and see.
As an aside, CMA was touting how it always promoted from within when they were hiring FO's with little experience.....but suddenly their is an ad for direct entry captains. Seems odd, with all the FO's they have that they could not find any to upgrade.
I feel for the new pilots who really want to believe all this fast track stuff. It actually saddens me when I see resumes from pilots with 2500 hrs TT and 125 PIC who are looking for a job to build PIC time because they can not get an upgrade with their airline.
To those who are building their PIC time and working quietly, keep at it.
The Air Canadas and WJ's still want the experience.
Just as a rant. I believe that the hiring qualifications for FO's should be almost to the same standards as is required for an immediate upgrade to Captain. That way, upgrades would be generally automatic, and based on seniority, and the FO would immediately become a full member of the flight crew and not require mentoring, instructing in the basics, babysitting etc. Now, if you really have your heart set on an airline career, look at which companies actually do this.
First.
Some college programs emphasize skill sets that are a little different than others. Perhaps Seneca does this and it is a good fit for Jazz.
Having said that, there is also the possibility that in order to obtain right seat pilots who will work for peanuts without ever really getting a shot at the left seat for a zillion years, they are looking for a certain mentality, and Seneca students maybe fit that profile. Remeber that if you are a college and can give your graduates priority hiring it is a big draw. The downside of this is not usually really brought up in recruitment.
This approach has been tried before, and it simply has never worked. There is no doubt the modern a/c are more sophisticated and really require data entering skills from a first officer, more so than actual flying skills. Only when upgrade times come do the real flying experience and skills come into play. I predict one of two things for the future of this practive. Career FO's or a few smoking holes in the ground. Wait and see.
As an aside, CMA was touting how it always promoted from within when they were hiring FO's with little experience.....but suddenly their is an ad for direct entry captains. Seems odd, with all the FO's they have that they could not find any to upgrade.
I feel for the new pilots who really want to believe all this fast track stuff. It actually saddens me when I see resumes from pilots with 2500 hrs TT and 125 PIC who are looking for a job to build PIC time because they can not get an upgrade with their airline.
To those who are building their PIC time and working quietly, keep at it.
The Air Canadas and WJ's still want the experience.
Just as a rant. I believe that the hiring qualifications for FO's should be almost to the same standards as is required for an immediate upgrade to Captain. That way, upgrades would be generally automatic, and based on seniority, and the FO would immediately become a full member of the flight crew and not require mentoring, instructing in the basics, babysitting etc. Now, if you really have your heart set on an airline career, look at which companies actually do this.
Last edited by trey kule on Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Man... what's up your ass about airline pilots Hedley? Did you try and not make it so now you assume all airline pilots have no talent?Hedley wrote:I hate to say it, but does it really matter how good a pilot they are, if all they're going to do is fly for an airline?a better PILOT
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mellow_pilot
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While Hedley may be slightly extreme in his judgement of airline pilots, I agree with the sentiment that the airlines are not the be-all and end-all of aviation. Personally, I like to turn left and right from time to time. Seems to me that a lot of the kids starting out have it stuck in their heads that if you don't make cptn on an A320 within in 10 yrs, you're a failure. At the Sault, it was pretty much assumed among most of the students that everyone was going for Big Red, many were surprised by the number of students who really weren't into that scene. CoPac was the same way. I imagine Seneca has a similar group.
It's not all about heavy metal for everyone. There are tonnes of career float drivers, ag guys, bush pilots, loggers, military, etc. If you just don't see the alure of those jobs, perhaps you can understand those who just aren't interested in watching an FMS fly them to destination.
It's not all about heavy metal for everyone. There are tonnes of career float drivers, ag guys, bush pilots, loggers, military, etc. If you just don't see the alure of those jobs, perhaps you can understand those who just aren't interested in watching an FMS fly them to destination.
Dyslexics of the world... UNTIE!
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Brantford Beech Boy
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I don't normally post on these topics. I get frustrated that my Alma Mater is usually singled out as a home for large egos when I have known many such pilots to come from just about every other school in the country.
I guess I don't enjoy being stereotyped.
To the question at hand, Why just Seneca?
I don't know for sure, I haven't been back to the college for some time but it may have something to to do with the RJ simulator that Seneca has.
I have heard thru the grapevine that Jazz may be using this sim for some of it's training. Perhaps a side deal was cut to benefit both the graduates and Jazz? (I'm just guessing). Perhaps because the RJ sylabus is included at Seneca, it would be cost effective for Jazz to simply complete a type rating/PPC rather than start from scratch with other candidates.
I'm not aware that any other such program in the country has that type/level of flight training device.
There is also a benefit to hiring college grads right out of school. You do not need to "de-program" another operators SOP and corporate mentality. Starting with a blank slate can make for easier training and indoctrination. Just a thought.
I disagree with the puppy mill analogy. We are not churned out ASAP to be forced onto a consumer market. In fact, Seneca meters the number of people allowed to participate in the program (just like other aviation colleges).
The puppy mills, IMHO, are the FTU that will crank out a CPL in X months and take every $$ they can get.
BBB
I guess I don't enjoy being stereotyped.
To the question at hand, Why just Seneca?
I don't know for sure, I haven't been back to the college for some time but it may have something to to do with the RJ simulator that Seneca has.
I have heard thru the grapevine that Jazz may be using this sim for some of it's training. Perhaps a side deal was cut to benefit both the graduates and Jazz? (I'm just guessing). Perhaps because the RJ sylabus is included at Seneca, it would be cost effective for Jazz to simply complete a type rating/PPC rather than start from scratch with other candidates.
I'm not aware that any other such program in the country has that type/level of flight training device.
There is also a benefit to hiring college grads right out of school. You do not need to "de-program" another operators SOP and corporate mentality. Starting with a blank slate can make for easier training and indoctrination. Just a thought.
I disagree with the puppy mill analogy. We are not churned out ASAP to be forced onto a consumer market. In fact, Seneca meters the number of people allowed to participate in the program (just like other aviation colleges).
The puppy mills, IMHO, are the FTU that will crank out a CPL in X months and take every $$ they can get.
BBB
As mentioned above... this also leads to a career F/O job... if that's what you want.Barlow Beech Boy wrote: There is also a benefit to hiring college grads right out of school. You do not need to "de-program" another operators SOP and corporate mentality. Starting with a blank slate can make for easier training and indoctrination. Just a thought.
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heavymetal
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Re: Hey Jazz...
Maybe they should pick them up from Sault or Mount Royal.Doc wrote:So you're going to put Seneca grads into the right seats on your RJ's? Why just Seneca?!
Just kidding bwahahahahahaha. Sorry guys, I can't keep a straight face on that one either.
I'm never played as the villian in the stories I've told.
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mellow_pilot
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While I agree with most of the sentiment, I would argue that there is just as much SOP and Corporate mentality at a college as any company. Sometimes more. (not bashing Seneca here, I've seen it from 3-4 other college FTUs.) It's a function of age and inexperience.Barlow Beech Boy wrote: There is also a benefit to hiring college grads right out of school. You do not need to "de-program" another operators SOP and corporate mentality. Starting with a blank slate can make for easier training and indoctrination. Just a thought.
Dyslexics of the world... UNTIE!
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Captain_Canuck
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I think what's happening is that alot of us here have been bustin our balls for the last 5-10 years trying to get a step ahead when times were tough and now all of a sudden, 250 hour kids are getting right seat on a jet without paying their dues.
You can't blame them, I would have taken the job too if I was offered it.
You can't blame them, I would have taken the job too if I was offered it.
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Anonymous1
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Smoking holes or career FOs??????? In the majority of the world, students graduate and then are hired as FOs in jets. Yes, it may be a shock to some but Canadian thinking is somewhat backwards. They don't crash and they are upgraded in due course. Lufthansa, BA, Singapore, etc...in fact all the world's leading airlines (except AC) hire direct from schools BECAUSE THERE IS NO BUSH!!! This crap in Canada about paying your dues etc... is simply not normal in most countries. Last time I checked, the accidents in Canada were at Transwest, FedEx, NavAir, GGN, etc...by experienced pilots. I would much rather see new pilots go directs the airlines (if that's their preference) and leave the more difficult and challenging flying to those pilots who choose it as a career. I hope all new spots are given to new college grads (not just Seneca though) and leave the bush stuff to those who have been doing it for some time. This should actually reduce overall accidents in the long term.
This stupid-ass pissing match over whether everyone want to go to AC (whether they know it or not) sure does get tiring. Some of us want to be airline pilots (I do) and some don't. SO WHAT. Flying is mostly pretty easy day to day. There are a few things about all types of flying that require tons of skill and experience to master. Fresh college grads do not have either.
It's not the college guys' fault if they get offered the job; I would've taken it too. They will be left in the corner when people are telling flying stories. If they are the type to get bitter, it will happen very fast because they won't have worked as hard or put in the time to really appreciate what they are being offered.
There will be blood in the streets if they get RJ spots because they have 10 hours in a RJ sim, while people with years of experience who want to fly the RJ are given what's left (nothing against the Dash).
Where I actually do agree with Hedley is; when brand new grads are offered this type of opportunity, it cheapens all flying that everyone else is doing.
It's not the college guys' fault if they get offered the job; I would've taken it too. They will be left in the corner when people are telling flying stories. If they are the type to get bitter, it will happen very fast because they won't have worked as hard or put in the time to really appreciate what they are being offered.
There will be blood in the streets if they get RJ spots because they have 10 hours in a RJ sim, while people with years of experience who want to fly the RJ are given what's left (nothing against the Dash).
Where I actually do agree with Hedley is; when brand new grads are offered this type of opportunity, it cheapens all flying that everyone else is doing.
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bobcaygeon
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It's for real, Michel Chiasson, VP of flight ops at Jazz, acknowledged it yesterday on a company website. 8 newhires right of school but didn't say which schools.Ralliart wrote:Does anyone have any evidence of this, like a press release or something.....or is it just another case of some nutjob on avcanada talking from their ass again?
