Wouldn't want to be them!

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Crazed Windscreen
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Wouldn't want to be them!

Post by Crazed Windscreen »

Can you imagine being one of those 8 people selected by Jazz from the flight colleges???

Wow...would love to be a fly on the wall in the crew room.
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Crazed Windscreen
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Post by Crazed Windscreen »

How about those pilots that have been there for a few years that got there the hard way.

How is a 250 hour pilot going to manage being in that cockpit? Thats a pretty big step form a twin piper in the circuit at Buttonville to a jet doing mach .8.

I wonder what this does to there insurance?
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linecrew
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Post by linecrew »

Crazed Windscreen wrote:How about those pilots that have been there for a few years that got there the hard way.

How is a 250 hour pilot going to manage being in that cockpit? Thats a pretty big step form a twin piper in the circuit at Buttonville to a jet doing mach .8.

I wonder what this does to there insurance?

I thought part of the course was training in an RJ sim that they have on site. You never know what you might get out of these people performance-wise. It's not like they are going direct left seat or anything.

I agree that it still isn't the same as "paying your dues" to get that seat though.
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CD
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Post by CD »

Saw this on another forum discussing the issue:
Anyone remember when Air Canada hired directly out of Seneca for S/O positions ? Sometime back in the the 1970's ? Those guys must have went right seat on something like a DC9 with no "time", and must all be widebody Captains by now ? How many took that route ?


So I guess it's not the first time that this has been done...
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Vref plus 10
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Post by Vref plus 10 »

this industry sucks.
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invertedattitude
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Post by invertedattitude »

An RJ doing Mach .8? Didn't know they could.
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MUSKEG
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Post by MUSKEG »

At an airshow recently a C-141 large transport showed up and imagine my surprise when the captain introduced himself. 25 years old and I think just over 1200 hours. He did an amazing job of beating the place up on departure. He had the skill set and the training. Thats all he needed. I think as much as it sucks Jazz is going to do just fine with career FO's. Three years down the road they will have 3000 hours with 150 PIC, then what do they do. Do our military guys not go straight from hawks to F18. Probably 300 hrs if that.
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MCA
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Post by MCA »

MUSKEG wrote:At an airshow recently a C-141 large transport showed up and imagine my surprise when the captain introduced himself. 25 years old and I think just over 1200 hours.
ya... captain on a starlifter with 1200 hrs....? maybe not, heah! that seems pretty irrealistic to me. unless he does it on Flight Sim.
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neilaroberts
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Post by neilaroberts »

Maybe it is time for us to rethink our priorities in this industry.
And I feel for people that are fed the airline line.

Let's face it, if I am the chief pilot for a nice little charter company (maybe a navajo, something that to the population, is unspectacular), have a decent little house on the lake, nice truck that is paid for, a kayak in the garage, and a fiance who goes off to her job in the medical profession everyday, I am still expected to be working towards my jet job. Perhaps part of our problem is that we hold the large air carriers in such high regard, with all other positions falling short of this illustrious goal. Trust me, I know the story all too well, all of the guys I learned to fly with are all on heavy iron, and I look like a schmuck in my life. But at the end of the day, I sleep quite well.

Now there are the guys that love the big city, love airline life, and I respect that, but I think we need more people who understand that there are stable, profitable, and rewarding areas of work outside of the airline world, and you need not worry about who Jazz is hiring. It may actually lead to the smaller operators becoming more and more appealing, with stronger rewards for the individuals that stay put.

Stop asking me when I am going to Air Canada, many roads lead to Rome for this boy.



Neil

again, "props" to the guys that want nothing more than to captain a big jet, I am just encouraging the exploration of other avenues and other definitions for what we consider "the pinncacle of our careers"
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MUSICMAAN
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Post by MUSICMAAN »

I've met a few of our Military Buffalo captains, and two of them were right around 500 hours total time.... what does that tell ya???
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Post by Cat Driver »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've met a few of our Military Buffalo captains, and two of them were right around 500 hours total time.... what does that tell ya???

They were Seneca grads.
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chipmunk
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Post by chipmunk »

MUSICMAN wrote:I've met a few of our Military Buffalo captains, and two of them were right around 500 hours total time.... what does that tell ya???
Aviation colleges don't exactly demand the sort of discipline and focus as Military Courses. :roll:
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shankdown
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Post by shankdown »

Back in the late 60's, CP hired about 40 young guys, all with about 250 hours. Everyone told them they were crazy, and that these guys were gonna crash something. 40 years later, not one of those guys had ever scratched an airplane, and they were all flying heavy iron as Captains. Pilots can be trained to fly airliners from early on. That's how foreign countries without an 'up north' do it. Spend the money on training the guy, and he'll be around for 40 years. A buddy of mine (pre Sept 11/01) went to the front office of an A340 that belonged to Singapore Airlines on a flight from Singapore to LA. The Captain was 25, the Co-Pilot was 22. And he said these kids were switched on; knew what they were doing. And the admitted that SA was doing it right. This kid was Captain at 25, and would remain in that position on that type of airplane for that same airline for the next 35 years. Huge savings in training costs over the long haul.

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critical engine
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Post by critical engine »

Well, at first everyone will be bitter. They may take some heat here and there. As time goes by they’ll quietly blend in to the system, and a few months from now, no one will even remember they came straight from school.
I don’t think most of us who came out of school would have passed up going straight to jazz if we could. I mean, why would we? If that’s the way things are now, great for them. The Asian airliners grab pilots straight from schools too. (Perhaps that’s why all the North Americans are flying there?? But that’s another thread)
Anyway, all of us seem to have The `Nam Mentality---- You weren't there man...You don't know! How dare you make it before me. Most of us make more $$$ in a right seat then they will anyway.

This may be some kind of pilot project. Maybe the airlines can train you the way they want you from day 1. Job/ aircraft specific. Mold you, turn you into an airline pilot. Gotta admit, you will have allot of exp. on type.
I have seen what it is like trying to make an old bush pilot do 2 crew, sops, and ifr.

I'm not saying its right, or fair, nor am I here to argue the finer points of building experience outside of the airlines before going there.
Pros and Cons to all. I’m not sure what AC/Jazz has for a master plan. I guess we just sit back, wish them well, and see where this goes, and how well it does.
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Post by Kilo-Kilo »

You guys are a fickle bunch. You bitch and moan how you were lead to believe that there was a pilot shortage and that after spending 50-60 grand you would be placed directly into a slick job with epaulette covers and rolling baggage, yet you wound up in a floater coat on the dock or chuckin bags in the wet snow at YVR.

The irony is that it is actually happening for newer pilots now, just the way you thought it should, and all you can do is belittle them.
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Post by RB211 »

So why do those with their noses out of joint on this issue believe the experience gained as a 'bush' pilot automatically makes for a better airline pilot?

For much of the rest of the world, including Europe, a pilots first job is at an airline.
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monkeyspankmasterflex
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Post by monkeyspankmasterflex »

I really feel for those recent Jazz hires with x thousand hours of experience who have "paid their dues". I'll feel worse for those hired after the direct entry hires. Imagine having worked in the industry, plugging away in Fort Whatever only to be junior to a 20 year old whose furthest flight north was to Sudbury for lunch.

Having said that, I wouldn't fault anyone for taking this opprtunity. I'm just having a hard time figuring out why Jazz would want to do this with the talent pool available to them. I have no doubt it'll work, as mentioned the military has 200 hr FOs on most platforms, but they spend a lot of effort on training. Why would Jazz want to spend more on training unless they're planning on paying the college hires less than other new hires. If that's the case, I hope these students haven't moved out of the house cause it's pretty hard to make ends meet in YYZ at 50K let alone less than 30K.
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bcflyer
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Post by bcflyer »

invertedattitude wrote:An RJ doing Mach .8? Didn't know they could.
Yup they'll do it. Even the old 100's will get up to .80 given the right conditions.
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Post by frontside_air »

RB211 wrote: For much of the rest of the world, including Europe, a pilots first job is at an airline.
indeed. does nobody find it at least mildly amusing to consider that the norm here for a freshly minted commercial pilot isn't to go into the highly structured, intensely context-specific training of an airline... but rather to use their vast experience to go off and start teaching other people how to fly right away?
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Post by Cat Driver »

" but rather to use their vast experience to go off and start teaching other people how to fly right away? "
Ever considered that by keeping the instructor pool full of just licensed pilots guys like J.D. in Ottawa can maintain better control?

Last thing these parasites in charge want is someone who has any background in aviation, they are nervous dealing with people who understand the subject.

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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Post by chicken hawk »

I would have to agree with Neil. Why are we all caught up in the alure of the big iron?? I for one could care less. I am much happier flying a small gig, and sleeping in my own bed EVERY night. Spend my days off riding my sled and ice fishing.

The whole airline life isn't for everyone. Make chump change working for Jazz, and have to spend every penny of it just to live in a major center. Complain about it all, but take a long look at what you are doing now. Is it really that bad? Are you going to have to spend 7 or 8 years in the right seat where you fly now?

I say let the Senca grads have those jobs. See how well they do paying off their student loans. While I sit back with a nice house and a garage full of fast toys!!
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Post by MUSKEG »

MCA It appears I am not the only one to meet young captains flying large A/C. Laugh all you want. I'm sure you buy into the theory that the proper progression is private licence. commercial lic, ratings, single engine, small twin, then maybe a navajo, all the while holding the hallowed turbine out there as if it's a cousin to the shuttle. And only when you reach 4000 hrs are you considered experienced. The industry would have you believe that but that is so far from true. I believe in advancment on ability not hrs and have had excellent success and happy crews. That is exactly what Jazz is doing, you think some schmuck who is barely scrapping by in school and parting all the time will be chosen. Not a chance. There are those out there who are perfectly capable of flying large A/C at 25 because they have skill, thought process and above all a good attitude. Life is unfair get used to it, make the most out of what you have going. Stop shitting on others good fortune. We are not all equally gifted.
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Post by Cat Driver »

The truth is flying any aircraft is not all that difficult.

With the proper training any marginally skilled person can go from zero hours to an airline jet in 250 hours.

Pilots have been used by industry for decades belieiving the B.S. that you have to work for peanuts for gypo outfits flying crapped out airplanes in crap weather to get smart enough to fly a fu.kin turbine powered airplane.

I was quite impressed with the young guys in Europe being trained to go straight into the airlines from zero hours.....

...and they seem to be able to weed out the villiage idiots during the training process.

It is expensive though around 125,000 Euro from zero to the right seat in a large jet.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

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Post by MCA »

MUSKEG wrote:Laugh all you want. I'm sure you buy into the theory that the proper progression is private licence. commercial lic, ratings, single engine, small twin, then maybe a navajo, all the while holding the hallowed turbine out there as if it's a cousin to the shuttle. And only when you reach 4000 hrs are you considered experienced. The industry would have you believe that but that is so far from true. I believe in advancment on ability not hrs and have had excellent success and happy crews. That is exactly what Jazz is doing, you think some schmuck who is barely scrapping by in school and parting all the time will be chosen. Not a chance. There are those out there who are perfectly capable of flying large A/C at 25 because they have skill, thought process and above all a good attitude. Life is unfair get used to it, make the most out of what you have going. Stop shitting on others good fortune. We are not all equally gifted.
i couldn't agree more with what you are saying, and what jazz is doing, what major airlines in europe have been doing for decades... (KLM, AFR, RYN, DLH, and so on...)

i am a graduate from one of these colleges, with very good training and theory background, and believe me, i know for sure that you can pick any mature and willing guys in those school, train them on any sim you want, and they will most of the time succeed. i honestly would have loved to be "gifted" enough so i could have the opportunity to train on a 777 with 250 hours. but guess what? that's apparently not the way it works in North America.

i know personnally 6 persons who have been chosen to train on the CRJ sim, and they all passed the check ride after a 4-week training. it's not standard, i don't say they would handle any emergency situation, but it's do-able. i even know a guy that got his ass in a A310 at 23, with waaaaaaayyyyyyy less hours needed to even apply and being considered for that job. he is apparently doing a nice job on the right side, but i wouldn't board his jet if he was seating left. period.

there are a few things money can't buy, and experience is one of them.

SO... captain on a A340 at 25.... i still doubt! SIA and friends are serious companies, and i don't think that's serious. F/O, cruise pilot, S/O, i'd buy. not PIC.

i don't shit on anybody's good fortune, i'm just totally skeptical about those young and proficient captains flying for majors in Asia...
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Post by MCA »

MUSKEG wrote:Laugh all you want. I'm sure you buy into the theory that the proper progression is private licence. commercial lic, ratings, single engine, small twin, then maybe a navajo, all the while holding the hallowed turbine out there as if it's a cousin to the shuttle. And only when you reach 4000 hrs are you considered experienced. The industry would have you believe that but that is so far from true. I believe in advancment on ability not hrs and have had excellent success and happy crews. That is exactly what Jazz is doing, you think some schmuck who is barely scrapping by in school and parting all the time will be chosen. Not a chance. There are those out there who are perfectly capable of flying large A/C at 25 because they have skill, thought process and above all a good attitude. Life is unfair get used to it, make the most out of what you have going. Stop shitting on others good fortune. We are not all equally gifted.
i couldn't agree more with what you are saying, and what jazz is doing, what major airlines in europe have been doing for decades... (KLM, AFR, RYN, DLH, and so on...)

i am a graduate from one of these colleges, with very good training and theory background, and believe me, i know for sure that you can pick any mature and willing guys in those school, train them on any sim you want, and they will most of the time succeed. i honestly would have loved to be "gifted" enough so i could have the opportunity to train on a 777 with 250 hours. but guess what? that's apparently not the way it works in North America.

i know personnally 6 persons who have been chosen to train on the CRJ sim, and they all passed the check ride after a 4-week training. it's not standard, i don't say they would handle any emergency situation, but it's do-able. i even know a guy that got his ass in a A310 at 23, with waaaaaaayyyyyyy less hours needed to even apply and being considered for that job. he is apparently doing a nice job on the right side, but i wouldn't board his jet if he was seating left. period.

there are a few things money can't buy, and experience is one of them.

SO... captain on a A340 at 25.... i still doubt! SIA and friends are serious companies, and i don't think that's serious. F/O, cruise pilot, S/O, i'd buy. not PIC.

i don't shit on anybody's good fortune, i'm just totally skeptical about those young and proficient captains flying for majors in Asia...
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