I don't post often so bare with me...
There was a situation today., and basically one of the options out was a form IMC IFR flight out of the situation.
Stupied points not worth bringing up as I know they are stupied...
1) I don't have the experience or in equipment to lead a form flight IMC. (I'm not the Snow birds lead)
2) # 2, 3 don't have the experience to follow. (They are not the Snow birds follow)
3) What if number 2, 3 loose number 1?
4) What kind of stupied situation would only leave this as an option?
5) Vis in IMC is actually pretty good (few hundred feet) how hard can it be to follow a guy a few tens of feet away???
6) Etc...???
I'm just asking if it's legal. I can't find anything that says it's not, and I do know for a fact that the real Snow Birds do this...
Cheers,
I know this is a stupied Post, But... Form Flying IMC???
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twinpratts
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It is legal, if you have the training.
If you are IMC, and lose lead, you follow procedures to avoid hitting him.
The military practice this on an ongoing basis... for numerous situations, where the sick bird has no com, and cannot fly the ILS, say, then he forms up on the good bird, and flys down to mins with the good bird doing the overshoot while the sick bird lands.
There are a series of verbal commands & handsignals as well, to indicate your problem, and fuel remaining etc.
*disclamer...these stunts were performed under supervision, by professional stuntmen. So we do not recommend you or your stupid little buddies try these at home
*.
If you are IMC, and lose lead, you follow procedures to avoid hitting him.
The military practice this on an ongoing basis... for numerous situations, where the sick bird has no com, and cannot fly the ILS, say, then he forms up on the good bird, and flys down to mins with the good bird doing the overshoot while the sick bird lands.
There are a series of verbal commands & handsignals as well, to indicate your problem, and fuel remaining etc.
*disclamer...these stunts were performed under supervision, by professional stuntmen. So we do not recommend you or your stupid little buddies try these at home
*.I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
Re: I know this is a stupied Post, But... Form Flying IMC???
From what I remember, the lost wingman calls blind and break away from the last known position of the lead. Then, he communicates with the lead to regain SA and eventually reform or do stuff on his own.rule911 wrote:3) What if number 2, 3 loose number 1?
I only did form flying in IMC once and I THINK this is what they briefed (geez, it's been 2 years....)
Max
I'll try not to sound too dramatic here.
In all likelyhood you will all die if you attempt to fly in formation with two or more airplane in IMC conditions without the proper training. There are contingency procedures for loss of sight but I'm not going to go into it because I think I would be contributing to this stupid action you're contemplating.
I'm not joking or exaggerating.
In all likelyhood you will all die if you attempt to fly in formation with two or more airplane in IMC conditions without the proper training. There are contingency procedures for loss of sight but I'm not going to go into it because I think I would be contributing to this stupid action you're contemplating.
I'm not joking or exaggerating.
I know it's stupied question and it was more of a passing thought to us than anything we'd seriously consider... I was wondering about the legality of it. And I agree, without training, lots of practice and skill, and some serious SOP's... a collision is very likly.
I've done some basic VFR form and that is hard enough. It gave me a even higher respect for the snow birds and alike.
I did not realise this was a normal military procedure... but in some situations like the sick plane described, it makes sense.
Cheers
I've done some basic VFR form and that is hard enough. It gave me a even higher respect for the snow birds and alike.
I did not realise this was a normal military procedure... but in some situations like the sick plane described, it makes sense.
Cheers
All weather formation flying is done routinely in the fighter community for many reasons besides sick airplanes. You can move two airplanes in and out of an airfield using half the time and space.
Simply being able to keep position in level flight and good weather is nowhere close to what you need to be proficient at. The visibility can go from miles to a few feet instantly so you have to be very close at all times in cloud. You have to be able to maintain references in all attitudes and airspeeds. The winger cannot reference their own instruments because their entire concentration must be on maintaining the proper reference on lead, and so has no idea whether or not they are right side up, turning, upside down, descending or climbing. They need the discipline and training to keep position no matter what their own brain is telling them and they have to know instinctively what to do if they lose sight of lead. A winger has to have absolute confidence in the lead which means the lead has to be absolutely competent at leading a formation in all weather.
Do this as an amateur and you will get killed.
Simply being able to keep position in level flight and good weather is nowhere close to what you need to be proficient at. The visibility can go from miles to a few feet instantly so you have to be very close at all times in cloud. You have to be able to maintain references in all attitudes and airspeeds. The winger cannot reference their own instruments because their entire concentration must be on maintaining the proper reference on lead, and so has no idea whether or not they are right side up, turning, upside down, descending or climbing. They need the discipline and training to keep position no matter what their own brain is telling them and they have to know instinctively what to do if they lose sight of lead. A winger has to have absolute confidence in the lead which means the lead has to be absolutely competent at leading a formation in all weather.
Do this as an amateur and you will get killed.
You guys are nuts if you're flying form with no or minimal training. Doing it IMC isn't that bad; if you're staying tight it takes some pretty thick soup to lose the lead. The problem is staying tight. If you dont know how to fly in formation it would be a complete disaster.
Form isn't hard in and of itself the basics are taught in moose jaw to military guys in about 7 hours but all that really includes is straight and level, climbs/descents, 45 degree bank turns, speed changes, different formations and rejoining once you're away from lead. Point is, dont try it without proper training.
This would also be a very bad decision to make mid flight. When you do form, its briefed on the ground, who leads, procedures etc and everyone is squared away on whats going to happen.
Lastly, if you've never flown formation, it'd be a really bad idea to try and lead one.
Form isn't hard in and of itself the basics are taught in moose jaw to military guys in about 7 hours but all that really includes is straight and level, climbs/descents, 45 degree bank turns, speed changes, different formations and rejoining once you're away from lead. Point is, dont try it without proper training.
This would also be a very bad decision to make mid flight. When you do form, its briefed on the ground, who leads, procedures etc and everyone is squared away on whats going to happen.
Lastly, if you've never flown formation, it'd be a really bad idea to try and lead one.
