If you could choose from either of these jobs, which one would you take and why? I am currently involved in a non-flying role at a flight school (this relates to job #1).
1) Instructing. The flight school is a busy school with opportunities apart from instructing. There is a possibility for me to move onto the flight line hopefully soon, but no guarantee. This school has a good fleet, but the possibility to move into the twin will be a long wait most likely. The school in question also has recieved cadets in the past, which increases the business. Overall great staff and potential for a lot of business. Also, staff get to use the simulator for free, which will help me keep the IFR current.
2) Aerial work. This job is seasonal (usually ends in late fall, and there is no work in winter). On average, you will log a lot more hours per month, but on a yearly basis, the instructing job and this one are probably comparable. There is only 1 type of a/c used (small cessnas), and all the flying is day VFR. This job would allow me to start flying right away, but come fall, I'll be out of work, waiting for spring to come by. There is no possibility for twin time. Pay is on a commission basis.
I welcome all comments and recommendations.
Taffer.
Which Job?
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I will speak from my experience. I was kind of in your situation a couple years ago.
What I did is aerial work; Fire patrol on C-182 RG. Flew a lot and good VFR experience since we travelled great distances and weather changes a lot on long trips. The airplane is not a jet, but I like it better than a 150.
I did not choose instruction for several reasons. The first one is that you are not flying the plane, your student does. Second one, your flying around an airport, and not much appends. Third reason, I had heard chief pilot don't like hiring instructor on a twin job.
Even if I didn't work during winter, after two seasons of fire detection, I had a little over 900 hours and got a job on a twin.
Maybe I was lucky, but that's how things went for me.
Hope this will help you.
PAQ
What I did is aerial work; Fire patrol on C-182 RG. Flew a lot and good VFR experience since we travelled great distances and weather changes a lot on long trips. The airplane is not a jet, but I like it better than a 150.
I did not choose instruction for several reasons. The first one is that you are not flying the plane, your student does. Second one, your flying around an airport, and not much appends. Third reason, I had heard chief pilot don't like hiring instructor on a twin job.
Even if I didn't work during winter, after two seasons of fire detection, I had a little over 900 hours and got a job on a twin.
Maybe I was lucky, but that's how things went for me.
Hope this will help you.
PAQ
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Circuit-Jockey
- Rank 1
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- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:43 am
As far as I'm concerned, both of those options are equally useless. During a market like this, even after your 3 years of instructing are up, you have 500-1000 hrs if your lucky. At this point, you're not really any higher up on the pile of resumes than the "200hr wonder". Why?...flight instructor time is only flight time in the log book...and quite lame at that!
Choice 2 at least offers some real flying...albeit not much. This is a better way than 1 but still quite slow.
Why not head over to a commuter operation, work the ramp/dispatch for a year or two, and jump into the right seat of a 703/704 operation? Even after years of choice 1 or 2, you'll still be waiting in line for this job anyways. Why not get your foot in the door now??
Choice 2 at least offers some real flying...albeit not much. This is a better way than 1 but still quite slow.
Why not head over to a commuter operation, work the ramp/dispatch for a year or two, and jump into the right seat of a 703/704 operation? Even after years of choice 1 or 2, you'll still be waiting in line for this job anyways. Why not get your foot in the door now??
Take the aerial job. It gives PIC and you will make more money in the winter doing something else. You also get independant flying time which is more useful. You will also go to other airports more often, unlike instructing. You can use this time to talk to anyone available to look for an upgraded job. It's networking, and it is more powerful than most log books. Plus, if you have time in a light cessna constant speed, you will be able to apply to a company...such as Little Red with your experience and move on to King Airs etc.
Pinkus
Pinkus
- it sucks that the student gets to log PIC while we instruct them.pinkus wrote:Take the aerial job. It gives PIC
Pinkus
- so what if the students hold my hand while i instruct them, i feel quite independant.pinkus wrote: You also get independant flying time which is more useful. Pinkus
- they had to take x-country out of the training syllabus.pinkus wrote:You will also go to other airports more often, unlike instructing. Pinkus
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ScudRunner
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3239
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:58 am
Taffer go with the Aerial job. Ive seen CP going through stacks of resumes filling garbage cans with 1000 and up intructor hour resume. And hireing a take a guy with about 500 because "he can actually fly". (statement from the CP) as noted in my next post. My bad 
May I ask what region of this great land you are in? who is hiring in August someone leave this air taxi company
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May I ask what region of this great land you are in? who is hiring in August someone leave this air taxi company
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Last edited by ScudRunner on Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fatdumbandlazy
- Rank 2
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:02 am
. wrote:Taffer go with the Aerial job. Ive seen CP going through stacks of resumes filling garbage cans with 1000 and up intructor hour resume. And hireing a take a guy with about 500 because he can actually fly.
Wow, you must have had a shitty instructor if they couldn't fly. Therefore, you must be a worse pilot then they were. Holy crap!! I hope you're slinging bags somewhere and not flying, for the safety of the general public, of course.
I am sick and tired of hearing that instructors can't fly an airplane. Do you actually think you are learning how to fly on those long straight and level legs you fly? That's great, you can hold your altitude within a couple hundred feet and a heading within 20 degrees, that's if you're actually flying the airplane. I've met 15 hour pilots that can do much better than that.
I challenge you or any pilot to take your aircraft of choice and attempt a a few exercises with the precision and accuracy that a flight instructor must demonstrate on every flight.
Instructing is a little respected profession for all the wrong reasons. Some individuals who instruct and are instructing for the wrong reasons may deserve less respect but they have a career in mind too. So do I.
There are rewarding aspects to the job that non-instructors will never get to experience.
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ScudRunner
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3239
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:58 am
Perhaps before I get in a pissing match here I should put quatation marks around my statment about "the 500 hour pilot can actually fly". That is mearly what the CP stated to me when choosing the new guy.
I'll hold my piss for next time. But your challenge is accepted I choose the FLEET CANUCK as my weapon.
I'll hold my piss for next time. But your challenge is accepted I choose the FLEET CANUCK as my weapon.
Take whichever one you can get, you know the saying, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, or however it went. If you have a chance for one job, don't reject it in favor of holding out for the other job.
Does the instructing position go along with any charter? Many FTU's also have a Charter OC and therefore one person for both jobs.
I started with a small FTU with a Charter OC, flew for a few years with them, got some great experience flying around interesting places in equally interesting weather, did the cadet thing for a while, and now onto second company with same scenario, FTU/Charter but with larger aircraft and currently being paid more than most twin turbine FO's to still fly a/c including everyone's favourite C172, so the instructor route has worked well for myself. After this position I'm most likely going to travel (internationally) and check out the aviation scene in other places.
Despite all the favourite stereotypes (circuit kings, cars fetish, no stick/rudder skills, never venturing outside training area) there are still many instructor positions that allow just as much, if not more variety and experience than fire patrol or telemetry etc.......you just have to find the right company and oppourtunity. Both positions I've been instructing in have provided ample oppourtunities for flying lots of scenic tours, charters, cargo, x-country aircraft ferrying, maintenance flights, ppl/cpl training......while flying in various weather conditions routinely to minimum VFR, going into unprepared strips, doors on/off, heavy/light, high/low, red/green/blue planes, you name it. Oppourunities will arise from ANY flying position that you choose, and you'll be amazed at the places and people you will interact with. I know at least a dozen other people around my area doing similar things while still having "Flight Instructor" on their resume.
After a couple years of flying your going to realise one way or another that 'hours' don't really matter as much as you thought, and flying is flying is a job....so you might as well get into something you think you'll enjoy so it'll get you through the bullshit times. Whoever tells you the type or amount of flying your doing is wrong or 'not good enough' probably hasn't made it themselves, or is jealous of what you do.
I could care less if I have 1000 hrs or 10000 hrs of instructor/multi/bush/airlines/space shuttle/ time just as long as its still interesting and I can support the lifestyle I choose to live.
Anyhow good luck with whatever works out, just make sure you do what you want to do and not what some boner, including myself, sitting in their mom's basement surfing avcanada, tells you to do.
Cheers
Does the instructing position go along with any charter? Many FTU's also have a Charter OC and therefore one person for both jobs.
I started with a small FTU with a Charter OC, flew for a few years with them, got some great experience flying around interesting places in equally interesting weather, did the cadet thing for a while, and now onto second company with same scenario, FTU/Charter but with larger aircraft and currently being paid more than most twin turbine FO's to still fly a/c including everyone's favourite C172, so the instructor route has worked well for myself. After this position I'm most likely going to travel (internationally) and check out the aviation scene in other places.
Despite all the favourite stereotypes (circuit kings, cars fetish, no stick/rudder skills, never venturing outside training area) there are still many instructor positions that allow just as much, if not more variety and experience than fire patrol or telemetry etc.......you just have to find the right company and oppourtunity. Both positions I've been instructing in have provided ample oppourtunities for flying lots of scenic tours, charters, cargo, x-country aircraft ferrying, maintenance flights, ppl/cpl training......while flying in various weather conditions routinely to minimum VFR, going into unprepared strips, doors on/off, heavy/light, high/low, red/green/blue planes, you name it. Oppourunities will arise from ANY flying position that you choose, and you'll be amazed at the places and people you will interact with. I know at least a dozen other people around my area doing similar things while still having "Flight Instructor" on their resume.
After a couple years of flying your going to realise one way or another that 'hours' don't really matter as much as you thought, and flying is flying is a job....so you might as well get into something you think you'll enjoy so it'll get you through the bullshit times. Whoever tells you the type or amount of flying your doing is wrong or 'not good enough' probably hasn't made it themselves, or is jealous of what you do.
I could care less if I have 1000 hrs or 10000 hrs of instructor/multi/bush/airlines/space shuttle/ time just as long as its still interesting and I can support the lifestyle I choose to live.
Anyhow good luck with whatever works out, just make sure you do what you want to do and not what some boner, including myself, sitting in their mom's basement surfing avcanada, tells you to do.
Cheers
Cedarjet,
settle down bros.
I know that instructing gives PIC. But not all PIC is equal. A guy bombing around solo, navigating new areas, whatching weather is different than instructing.
Indepenadant flying time was in reference to a guy out of the circuit all day.Reading maps, while flying at low levels. It's different flying...not always better, but different.
Cross countries from one school usually go to the same spots. The aerial job MAY take that person to different spots with time to kill. Do you ask your student to go wait while you find a CP?
FatDumb Lazy
You take these coments all wrong. I respect instructors. I think they do a good job. But, the experience in aerial work will probably lend better on a resume because of such stigmatisms. The problem is in a few...and it paints them all. The hotshot instructor shows with 1500 hrs and wants a PIC right away because they have an ATPL. These people propegate the problem.
With any job in aviation, your past experince is only relevant to the present if the type of flying lends itself to the type you are doing now. IFR pilots may not be as accurate as instructors...but they have lost engines, had it out with a thunderstorm, and many other problems that are less frequent to things like VFR instruction.
In fact instruction is good, because when you do get the next job, and show your worth, you will get the nod partly because of of your PIC time. The insurance companies dictate this....
Pinkus
settle down bros.
I know that instructing gives PIC. But not all PIC is equal. A guy bombing around solo, navigating new areas, whatching weather is different than instructing.
Indepenadant flying time was in reference to a guy out of the circuit all day.Reading maps, while flying at low levels. It's different flying...not always better, but different.
Cross countries from one school usually go to the same spots. The aerial job MAY take that person to different spots with time to kill. Do you ask your student to go wait while you find a CP?
FatDumb Lazy
You take these coments all wrong. I respect instructors. I think they do a good job. But, the experience in aerial work will probably lend better on a resume because of such stigmatisms. The problem is in a few...and it paints them all. The hotshot instructor shows with 1500 hrs and wants a PIC right away because they have an ATPL. These people propegate the problem.
With any job in aviation, your past experince is only relevant to the present if the type of flying lends itself to the type you are doing now. IFR pilots may not be as accurate as instructors...but they have lost engines, had it out with a thunderstorm, and many other problems that are less frequent to things like VFR instruction.
In fact instruction is good, because when you do get the next job, and show your worth, you will get the nod partly because of of your PIC time. The insurance companies dictate this....
Pinkus
Hands down take the aeral work. I went instructing route, and without multi instructional time to go with it, it's only filler for those ATPL's. The areal work may only be in a single, but it's considered "industry time".
either route will have its advantages, and disadvantages, but the the aeral time will open more doors faster.
Cheers.
either route will have its advantages, and disadvantages, but the the aeral time will open more doors faster.
Cheers.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
For all those people who comment to others about your "big break" doing something like patrols or aerial work how you gained excellent experience and therefore would recommend that route, that's great! Good on ya.
But saying another type of flying is low grade when never have attempted it simply because you don't think it's good enough, or your friend thinks that way, or you've heard people say they don't like to hire a certain type, is pretty childish.
Having done both scenarios many times over, I can tell y'all that the weather doesn't know what side of the airplane your sitting on and what the purpose of your flight is. It'll @#$! ya over real good regardless if your looking for fires or looking for a suitable field to practice your next engine failure scenario.
I really wish life were that easy, that I'd never have to encounter mag problems/carb ice/gyro failures/static port blockage/comm failure/engines failures/fuel problems/alternator failures/paint falling off the airplane when a student happens to be on board. It happens just as frequently both ways. The airplane could care less.
If your afraid to go a certain flying route because you think it'll actually make you less of a pilot or give you less chance of progressing onto bigger and better things later in your career, your probably in the business for the wrong reasons.
Regardless of which flying route you choose, after X amount of flying hours, chances are you going to encounter nearly the same amount of shitty situations requiring various degrees of PDM, and if your still alive and unsued to speak about it, the better off you'll be in both knowledge and skill --- i don't think anyone can dispute that. Time in an airplane is time in an airplane, you see things, hear things, do things, try things that you don't get the oppourtunity to do if you don't take the chance. If you end up getting to the point where someone tells you to @#$! off and won't look at you because you have that magic job description on your resume, you probably don't want to be working for them in the first place, and would be much better off at many of the other places around the country or world where they look more at what kind of a person you are and what kind of skills can you bring to the table to help increase & sustain their business --- rather than how much of your flight time has been spent touching the controls during all those times you went flying and somehow managed to return the aircraft in one piece, without breaking any regs, or pissing anyone off.
Fly safe
But saying another type of flying is low grade when never have attempted it simply because you don't think it's good enough, or your friend thinks that way, or you've heard people say they don't like to hire a certain type, is pretty childish.
Having done both scenarios many times over, I can tell y'all that the weather doesn't know what side of the airplane your sitting on and what the purpose of your flight is. It'll @#$! ya over real good regardless if your looking for fires or looking for a suitable field to practice your next engine failure scenario.
I really wish life were that easy, that I'd never have to encounter mag problems/carb ice/gyro failures/static port blockage/comm failure/engines failures/fuel problems/alternator failures/paint falling off the airplane when a student happens to be on board. It happens just as frequently both ways. The airplane could care less.
If your afraid to go a certain flying route because you think it'll actually make you less of a pilot or give you less chance of progressing onto bigger and better things later in your career, your probably in the business for the wrong reasons.
Regardless of which flying route you choose, after X amount of flying hours, chances are you going to encounter nearly the same amount of shitty situations requiring various degrees of PDM, and if your still alive and unsued to speak about it, the better off you'll be in both knowledge and skill --- i don't think anyone can dispute that. Time in an airplane is time in an airplane, you see things, hear things, do things, try things that you don't get the oppourtunity to do if you don't take the chance. If you end up getting to the point where someone tells you to @#$! off and won't look at you because you have that magic job description on your resume, you probably don't want to be working for them in the first place, and would be much better off at many of the other places around the country or world where they look more at what kind of a person you are and what kind of skills can you bring to the table to help increase & sustain their business --- rather than how much of your flight time has been spent touching the controls during all those times you went flying and somehow managed to return the aircraft in one piece, without breaking any regs, or pissing anyone off.
Fly safe
taffer,
Hands down, the aerial work is where it's at. Sounds like photo work to me? PM if you like. I did the same thing, seasonal. Made some good money on the commission during the season, and made good money during the winter doing everything else I could...for me it was much more financially sound. I think the time building, although condensed into the season, is roughly the same as an average flight school, especially when you consider the wx factor for instructing during the winter.
I had an interview once when I was still pretty low time, and the CP, after glancing at my resume, said he didn't care what else I had to say, but he wanted to know about "this"...he was pointing to the aerial work experience.
It's hands-on, it's decision making, it may even scare the shit out of you once in a while as it did me. I would have loved to instruct (I love telling people how I think they should be doing things
!), but I wouldn't trade my aerial work experience for anything. It has worked very well for me on the resume.
Best of luck!
Hands down, the aerial work is where it's at. Sounds like photo work to me? PM if you like. I did the same thing, seasonal. Made some good money on the commission during the season, and made good money during the winter doing everything else I could...for me it was much more financially sound. I think the time building, although condensed into the season, is roughly the same as an average flight school, especially when you consider the wx factor for instructing during the winter.
I had an interview once when I was still pretty low time, and the CP, after glancing at my resume, said he didn't care what else I had to say, but he wanted to know about "this"...he was pointing to the aerial work experience.
It's hands-on, it's decision making, it may even scare the shit out of you once in a while as it did me. I would have loved to instruct (I love telling people how I think they should be doing things
!), but I wouldn't trade my aerial work experience for anything. It has worked very well for me on the resume.Best of luck!
I agree with Ralliart, in the end it doesn't really matter how you get your time.
The fact that you have two different offers is lucky in it self, you have a choice where most don’t. I would think ahead towards where you want to be in a few years. Both jobs lead to good experience either way, the flight school will probably lead to better IFR skills while the other will lead to slightly better VFR skills. The one advantage the flying schools job has it the fact they do have a twin, which you might be able to build up extremely valuable multi PIC time. The problem with the Aerial work job is that you might find you have one hell of time getting into the Multi world. So many companies now require you to have Multi PIC time, due to various contract requirements. It makes it extremely hard to land a job as a co-pilot, because these companies know they can never upgrade you. Not all companies are like this, just one other thing to think about.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
The fact that you have two different offers is lucky in it self, you have a choice where most don’t. I would think ahead towards where you want to be in a few years. Both jobs lead to good experience either way, the flight school will probably lead to better IFR skills while the other will lead to slightly better VFR skills. The one advantage the flying schools job has it the fact they do have a twin, which you might be able to build up extremely valuable multi PIC time. The problem with the Aerial work job is that you might find you have one hell of time getting into the Multi world. So many companies now require you to have Multi PIC time, due to various contract requirements. It makes it extremely hard to land a job as a co-pilot, because these companies know they can never upgrade you. Not all companies are like this, just one other thing to think about.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
