spin training

172pilot · Post by **172pilot** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:58 pm

I have a serious fear of spins. I'd eventually like to conquer this fear so I can get a CPL (which is why i haven't yet). I've never been one to enjoy roller coasters/extreme rides etc and don't find power on stalls much fun do to the fear of them leading into spins. More than anything it's my fear of losing control of the airplane along with the quick wing drop.

What is the best approach to overcome this? Should a person take a specialized spin course at one of the schools i've seen down in the US? I'd like to ease my way into this with someone who has lots of experience - in a plane that has maybe more visibility than the 172.

Any ideas appreciated.

niss · Post by **niss** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:07 pm

Do you have your PPL? This can be a dangerous place to have a PPL and not have done spins......maybe its just dangerous for me.

Sorry I have nothing else to add, just to vent.

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:43 pm

You won't regret taking a spin course down in the States.

It helps a lot with confidence.

Or, to start with, pick up a book on aerobatics or spins.

marktheone · Post by **marktheone** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:41 pm

I'm not too crazy about them either. But, they are done all day and no (almost) crashes. Play the odds.

Once you've done a few it's almost fun.

alpha1 · Post by **alpha1** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:47 pm

a really good book with an excellent chapter on spins is:

Basic Aerobatics by Geza Szurovy and Mike Goulian

You can get it on amazon. I learned alot from it.

In the States i recommend the following school for spin training; the quality of instruction is awesome.

http://www.apstraining.com

good luck!

Pilatusable · Post by **Pilatusable** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:49 pm

Most training aircraft are designed to be stable, and return to level flight (or close to it) with minimal input. I've never tried this, but I've been told by many instructors that when in a spin, just let go of all controls and the plane should sort itself out. Make sure you have lots of altitude to play with and give it a try. Once you do a few spins and get used to them, you won't be able to stop. They are one of the highlights of my training.

CARS 602.03 · Post by **CARS 602.03** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:54 pm

Well this might be difficult to do, but I suggest just gritting your teeth and doing it. You're flying a 172, which is capable of recovering from a spin on its own. So go up with an instructor, who is obviously confident in recovering from spins and let them demonstrate a few spins to you, and let them show you that if they let go of all controls that it recovers on its own. Once you realize that you're in a controlled situation it shouldn't be so hard to get over, considering you like roller coasters and extreme rides. Knowing that you like rides like that, it's not the feeling that bothers you, just the thought of being out of control.

After you realize that there's nothing to be afraid of, you're going to love spins, they were my favorite part of the CPL training. On a side note, we had this one plane that had a bad left turning tendency, therefore it really liked to spin (I think the two were linked), we got it to spin 6 times and it was great.

So just get it in your head, that you're not going to crash is the main point

and enjoy yourself

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:15 pm

Pilatusable wrote:Most training aircraft are designed to be stable, and return to level flight (or close to it) with minimal input. I've never tried this, but I've been told by many instructors that when in a spin, just let go of all controls and the plane should sort itself out. Make sure you have lots of altitude to play with and give it a try. Once you do a few spins and get used to them, you won't be able to stop. They are one of the highlights of my training.

Good god I hope you're not suggesting that this be done on your own without training!!!

Get in with an instructor and spin the sucker. It's really not that bad, after a couple flights, it's old hat. Never be afraid of the airplane, respect it, don't fear it. If you're afraid to fly, don't. Apprehension is fine, being nervous is ok, but do not ever fly if you're scared. It's not a good mental state to be in when you're responsible for lives.

For the most part, you can let a 172 recover on it's own, but do not ever rely on this. You are flying the airplane. Fly it. Don't let the airplane do anything without you telling it to. There are plenty of aircraft which will not recover on their own.

Sorry to come off so harsh, but this is nothing to joke about. People get killed because of attitudes. If you're too afraid to learn how to properly control the airplane, or so cavalier that you'll let it fly itself, you have no business in the cockpit until you change these attitudes.

In closing, I suggest searching this topic (especially under the flight training forum) as it has already been discussed ad nauseum.

Pilatusable · Post by **Pilatusable** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:16 pm

I definately meant try it in a controlled environment with an experienced instructor. Clearly if someone is afraid of spins or hasn't experienced them before, it would not be a good idea for them to go out on their own and try spinning without the proper instruction. I figured this was a given, and went without saying.

Guido · Post by **Guido** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:19 am

In my somewhat limited experience (200 hr wonder) a 172 is actually fairly difficult to put into a spin... it actually takes effort. A 150 on the other hand, or a katana doesn't take much... but overall still fairly stable aircraft.

In a 172 there's not a lot to be nervous about... they're pretty tame. You'll be surprised. I was intimidated by stalls when I first started my training, but soon enough got over that. It just takes practice and getting used to the idea that the airplane isn't just going to fly apart when you stop airflow over the wings. Same with spins - you're well within the limitations of the aircraft, so there's nothing to worry about as long as you follow the procedures (which are pretty simple, if you think about it).

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:44 am

Guido's right - the 172, loaded in the utility category, is very difficult to keep in a spin past one turn. A spin is really still incipient until you're past 1.5 turns (or so).

However, a 150/152 spins absolutely MARVELLOUSLY! It winds up like a kid's toy. Click on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laPklVfCdAI

Bill Kershner (now deceased, old age I might add) in his later years ran a very successful spin training school in Tennessee with nothing more than a 152 aerobat.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:23 am

The purpose of Spin Training is to teach recognition and recovery.

Most of the spinable training aircraft are much too docile and spin resistant. You really don't learn much about spins in one of these aircraft.

The exception is the Piper Tomahawk. It is easy to spin and takes a longer to recover. This is more valuable training because if you were to ever get into a spin with a more complex aircraft, it would behave more like the Tomahawk than a C172.

In a Tomahawk you MUST learn and apply proper recovery technique and it is something that will stay with you forever.

Isn't that the point?

Expat · Post by **Expat** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:45 pm

172,

If you are that afraid of spins, you probably received incomplete training. I will be in Canada for the last two weeks in July. Just call me and we will go spinning, day and night, until you like it.

Bob

767 · Post by **767** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:42 pm

hey dont worry, your not the only one. ill tel you how it went for me. on the day i was going up to do spins, my heart was pounding hard while i was doing the walkaround.. you can picture what it was going to be like later on during that day. so, here i am at 5000 ft AGL and the instructor is starting to breif me on what is about to happen. he did this for 2 minutes or so. then, he pulls the pwer back slowly and enters slow flight. then, as we approach the stall, he pulls back and kicks in the rudder. when this happened, i just grabbed the contol yok to attempt to get the plane back into normal cruise attitide. my instructor aborted the excercise and started over again. the second time, i grabbed my seat and i closed my eyes. LOL. the first spin was not comfortable, it was disorienting (leans). then the second time it got better. i wanted to do it again and again. unfortunatley, i started getting sick after a while and we decided to land back after doing spins 4 times. i think i can handle them now and i have no fear.. but from time to time, i do get nervous when someone else is entering the spin while im the passenger. so dont worry, it just takes time to get used to them. there is no need to take course, just do the spins yourself with an instructor on board, in case you screw up. good luck

767 · Post by **767** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:45 pm

Hedley wrote:Guido's right - the 172, loaded in the utility category, is very difficult to keep in a spin past one turn. A spin is really still incipient until you're past 1.5 turns (or so).

However, a 150/152 spins absolutely MARVELLOUSLY! It winds up like a kid's toy. Click on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laPklVfCdAI

Bill Kershner (now deceased, old age I might add) in his later years ran a very successful spin training school in Tennessee with nothing more than a 152 aerobat.

dude i think thats a simulator

Jim N · Post by **Jim N** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:00 pm

mellow_pilot wrote:Get in with an instructor and spin the sucker. It's really not that bad, after a couple flights, it's old hat. Never be afraid of the airplane, respect it, don't fear it. If you're afraid to fly, don't. Apprehension is fine, being nervous is ok, but do not ever fly if you're scared. It's not a good mental state to be in when you're responsible for lives.

For the most part, you can let a 172 recover on it's own, but do not ever rely on this. You are flying the airplane. Fly it. Don't let the airplane do anything without you telling it to. There are plenty of aircraft which will not recover on their own.

Amen to that, Mellow pilot.

Rent a 150/152 and an instructor and do spins until they no longer concern you. The 150 is great fun for the hands off recovery technique. The Tomahawk is uhhh....not so fun. As stated, be careful in your choice of aircraft. A spin in a proper aircraft should be nothing to feared.

For me, spinning defined becoming a pilot. The first thing I did after getting my PPL signed off was rent the plane, truck to the nearest CYA, and do spins for over an hour. No instructor authorization required to practice them anymore after all....

Jim N · Post by **Jim N** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:28 pm

Lost in Saigon wrote:The purpose of Spin Training is to teach recognition and recovery.

Most of the spinable training aircraft are much too docile and spin resistant. You really don't learn much about spins in one of these aircraft.

The exception is the Piper Tomahawk. It is easy to spin and takes a longer to recover. This is more valuable training because if you were to ever get into a spin with a more complex aircraft, it would behave more like the Tomahawk than a C172.

In a Tomahawk you MUST learn and apply proper recovery technique and it is something that will stay with you forever.

Isn't that the point?

That is the point indeed!

I second the nomination for the Traumahawk for advanced spin training when you are ready...if you can find one. Not many sold as trainers because of its spin characteristics. No need to coax one into the spin- when it stalls it will drop a wing before dropping the nose. Being able to recover from a spin was mandatory before a student went solo. Anything else would be an accident waiting to happen in that machine. Saved at least one pilot I know of.

The spin in the PA-38 seems exponential in altitude loss vs. rotation. One 360 looses maybe 600' and two will cost you 1800'. Once fully developed, the aircraft wants to spin. You must check FULL forward on the recovery as anything less might not do the trick especially with an aft CofG or accidental spin with flaps extended. Be prepared for an excessively long wait for the recovery imputs to make any difference. After six rotations the Tomahawk will take at least another two or three rotations to recover. Not the kind of aircraft to take lightly, but part of its quirky charm as well.

Botton line is, as Lost in Saigon was pointing out, training like this stays with you. It is not likely to be the docile aircraft that wil bite you, it is the unstable one. Learn now and it may help you later...

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:33 pm

You want something fun to spin, try this baby...

good_idea · Post by **good_idea** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:10 am

I don't think anyone is ever fully comfortable in a spin. Keep in mind it is an exercise so that if in real flying you should encounter something like a power on stall or spin you know the correct recovery procedure and don't make it worse.

See if you can do some dual time with you flight instructor and get used to the way the aircraft will move and eventually you will be able to predict the movement and the feeling and you should be fine.

good_idea

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:55 am

I don't think anyone is ever fully comfortable in a spin

I think you would be surprised as to what you could get used to. People adapt amazingly to changing environments - that's why we're still here, after all.

Guys like Bill Finigan, Rich Stowell, or Bill Kershner, each with over 10,000 spins under their belts, I can assure you are "very" comfortable in a spin.

After the first 1,000 spins, they get easier - trust me