Death of Air Canada

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Would the industry thrive or die without Air Canada?

Thrive
73
74%
Die
26
26%
 
Total votes: 99

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Airtids
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Death of Air Canada

Post by Airtids »

In light of some recent threads, and rampant customer dis-satisfaction, I'm wondering what the consensus is on whether the demise of Big Red will help or hinder the Canadian Aviation Industry in the mid-long term. Say five year crystal ball. Short-term chaos is obvious, but then...? What do you all think the chronology of events would be?
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Post by Right Seat Captain »

I say if Air Canada goes, someone who can better handle the business will take over. It'll hurt the first year Air Canada goes, but it will pick up after. All the people who lost their jobs at Air Canada would probably be picked up within a year from any new or current company.
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Post by ahramin »

Well no one has put it up so maybe you havn't heard it:


A guy sits down in an airport cafe for lunch. At the table beside him is a beautiful woman. Wow. She is really beautiful. She must be a stewardess. thinks the guy. I wonder which airline she is with.
So he leans over and says:
"Something special in the air?"

She glances at him and then looks away.

Hmm, not American Airlines. Maybe Delta?
He leans over again and says:
"Fly the friendly skies?"

This time she moves her chair away from him without looking over.

Nope, not Delta. Maybe Alaska?
He leans over again but before he can say anything she looks over and says:

"Excuse me but what the @#$! do you want?"

"AH", says the guy, nodding his head, "Air Canada"

The comp sci dean at my uni liked the red team's unofficial motto so much he now has it posted on the departmental home page:

"We're not happy 'till your not happy."

ahramin
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Post by Rebel »

Your demise of AC is well, premature. Sorry to spoil your fun.

Feb. 25, 2004
Air Canada to expand local services
By TAL MUSCAL

Air Canada plans to expand its flight to Israel, commencing a daily service between Toronto Pearson International Airport and Tel Aviv on June 1, Bill Bredt, vice president for international affairs, alliances and revenue management said Tuesday during a short visit to Israel.

Air Canada currently operates four weekly flights between Canada and Israel using Boeing 767-300 passenger jets. Bredt also said Air Canada would enlarge its fleet in the coming year, offering in-flight pay television and Internet services.

Air Canada and El Al Israel Airlines are currently the only scheduled carriers flying between Tel Aviv and Canada.

© 1995 - 2004 The Jerusalem Post. All rights reserved
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Post by Go Guns »

The intended Hollywood drama is nice touch there Rebel. Does Air Canada pay you to fly or just to defend their honour on the internet?

I would prefer Air Canada emerge from bankruptcy protection thriving on new ideas based on a new attitude. However, if they did go under, I think there would be a lengthy time period where the industry would feel the crunch before something else filled the void. Once the void was filled, we would be doing allright.
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Post by Rebel »

Thompsonav8rboy

Your quote" Does Air Canada pay you to fly or just to defend their honour on the internet?"

Actually they’re one and the same. Frankly I just get sick and tired of everyone taking shots at AC based mostly on hearsay and misinformation. It’s an excellent company to work for it’s just too bad not everyone has the opportunity.
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Post by Go Guns »

Fair Enough. Like I said before, I really hope Air Canada thrives. Though IMO, they've got some things to fix before that will happen.
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Post by JBI »

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Last edited by JBI on Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tusky »

What most of you fail to realize is that being Canada's largest airline it is going to be in the new more than the smaller ones. People are reluctant to call in and comment on how well they were treated but won't hesitate to complain. You won't hear on the news how great Air Canada's service is but the second something goes wrong it will be all over the new. Lastly when there is any kind of weather problem, anti-freeze shortage, or black-out Air Canada is going to be hit the hardest. They have more to lose because one day at Air Canada is the equivalent of 20 or more days of revenue at any other Canadian airline. They do have problems but I guarantee if you fly Westjet you are going to find a flight attendent or customer service agent who gives you a hard time. And it will take the industry a long time to get over the loss of Air Canada, so before you say you think the industry would be better without it think about how many pilots will be trying to steal your job!
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Post by mbflyer »

I've had both good and bad experiences at AC. On my honeymoon, my wife and I didn't get seats together on the flight to Toronto. The next day when we were checking in for our flight to Jamaica, we were told we would get our seats assigned at the gate. Fearful of the same problem, we told the gate attendant of our problems on the earlier flight. We got upgrades to first class - Kudos to Her!

The bad was two flights in 2000. on one leg from Winnipeg to Vancouver. The whole "meal" was frozen. On the return trip, our bags made it from Sydney to LA, but didn't show up in Vancouver. When we asked about an upgrade because of this at the gate, the gate agent told me to give him a credit card and he would do it. I said I would like a complementary upgrade, he said no, and then refused to answer any more of my questions. (The plane was 1/3 full). However when they finally arrived, the person at lost baggage sent the baqs by taxi as opposed to their delivery truck, so that we would get them earlier. So it was a good end to a bad episode.

But perception has alot to do with it. I would seriouly doubt that anyone would want our flag carrier to cease to exist, but would like to see major changes. Personally, I think if Milton was to go, that would be a huge step in the right direction. And perhaps they shouldn't try to compete with Westjet. MArket themselves as the higher-end domestic and sole international carrier.

But I think that unless there are major chages at AC, then we may see this again in a few years time.
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Last edited by mbflyer on Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rebel »

JBI, K and mbflyer


Thank you for the nice posts. I would be a fool not to admit that on occasion you’re not going to run across a disgruntled employee. Heck it’s happened to me and it’s not an enjoyable experience. As human beings we have a natural tendency to conclude the whole barrel is rotten because of a few bad apples.

People don’t like change in normal times and in these very turbulent times they have come to loath it. We also have a union/government mentality to overcome in many departments. There are problems but generally the AC staff is made of the rest stuff so we will succeed.

Most folks when placed in a situation were they are faced with the lost of their jobs; homes and perhaps their marriages react in a negative manner. The airline business is very high profile so as K suggests we only hear the horror stories. Of course there are employees that should have never been hired in the first place but how do you terminate these folks when their union protects them. Only in Canada you say, pity.

What most people don’t seem to understand is that employees at the LCC’s generally are not paid enough to live on, pilot’s aside. Down the road the industry is going to pay for this folly. Might I suggest increased security concerns..I remember flying into some US stations that laid off their regular employees and replaced them with a contract company that paid minimum wage. It turned out to be a very costly mistake.

JBI I wish that I could provide you with a direct answer to your question regarding employee loyalty, unfortunately I can’t. I suspect that part of the solution is for companies to start treating their employees with respect and loyalty. It’s a two street and we as a society are going to have to learn to effectively deal with this problem.

On another note I expect to see the GTAA (Greater Toronto Airport Authority) appeal the WJ gate fiasco. The GTAA is probably on par with the “Gun Register” in regards to cost overruns and generally just plain incompetence. I was rather surprised to hear the former Transport Minister admit that his Government “blow it” when they privatized the airports. A major management overhaul is definitely in order at the GTAA. They are an embarrassment to the whole country.

Reb

In my opinion only..
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Post by StickShaker »

Being an Airline expert like the rest of you, IMO Air Canada has to downsize to 100 planes, maybe 114, of an all Airbus fleet. There are way too many seats wasting fuel out there and if AC wants to make some doh, they are going to have to jettison a lot of those seats. Also they should try to find the best winds at altiude to maximize ground speed performance and thus save on gas. Why the hell they aren't doing this now we'll never know.
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Post by Rebel »

StickShaker

re: "Also they should try to find the best winds at altiude to maximize ground speed performance and thus save on gas. Why the hell they aren't doing this now we'll never know."

Hmm as far as I know this is standard practice at every airline in the world. In laymen's terms flight operations purchases a satellite weather package from an outside source. The airlines flight planning computer then combines the flights desired track information with the weather input taking into account real time winds along the planned track to arrive at the most cost effective way to operate the flight.

The flight planning computer also takes into account aircraft performance and altitude temperatures among other parameters in order to develop a solution. As the aircraft becomes lighter by burning off fuel, the flight plan directs the pilot to step climb to an more fuel efficient altitude traffic permitting. Pilots can modify the flight plan if the forecast winds or other changing parameters suggest a change of plan would be prudent.

This is just a quick overview of a very complex procedure.

I hope this helps clear up any misconceptions that you may have had..
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Post by Redwine »

I know now is probably a bad time financially. But what Air Canada really needs is a major face lift. New livery, new uniforms, new customer service policies, new leader. A new vision is what is needed. Get uniforms that command style, authority, and pride. Those outdated green rags they are forced to wear are a national embarassment. Give Boss, Calvin Clein or any other higher end rag shop designer a call. What the consumer wants is change, vision and dreams. How about some good old fashioned professionalism. You sit at Pearson somewhere in the terminal waiting for a flight and you are forced to have to sit next to a group of employees wearing green sipping coffee, having a little pow-wow of how shitty the company is treating them. Ramp workers in particular. I, as a paying customer for one do not want to hear this crap. Two, if your going to badmouth and talk company politics, do so in your company lunch room, not in a customer designated area. Air Canada is a great national airline and could have lots of potential. Get rid of all those old hag flight attendants that think we owe them everything. We pay their wages for heavens sake. I'm tired of it. Tired.
As my mother would say; the room needs to be cleaned up. Clean up your act.
Good Luck Air Canada
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Post by Rebel »

Redwine

Thank you for your input. I took the liberty of posting your letter on the employee web site.
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Post by ... »

Dear Rebel,
I fly AC all the time to get me to and from meetings. I have a question. Why is it that everytime I fly with AC, I always get stuck sitting next to someone that regards 'bathing' as optional? Shouldn't these passengers be on West Jet or Jetsgo?

I pay a higher price for higher quality people.....but don't get my money's worth.

In desperation,

TheDog
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Post by N2 »

Copied from the airline forum. Where's AC?


Westjet was ranked third when it came to "best cabin staff" in North America. Three of the top five ranked carriers are LCC's, interestingly enough. Don't know how official this is, but cool nonetheless.

1. JetBlue
2. Midwest
3. Westjet
4. Southwest
5. Alaska

The qualities for which we asked passengers to "nominate" a Best Cabin staff are:

Service Efficiency
Staff Cabin Presence
Service Attentiveness
Staff Friendliness
Consistency among Staff
Sincerity and Attitude of Staff

Survey data, was gathered via:

Skytrax Online Passenger Survey
Travel Questionnaires
Onboard / Airport customer interviews

Redwine, you make a great point about the moral at AC lately. Disgruntled employees don't make the experience of dealing with AC pleasurable at all. Not only does this apply to the ground crew but also to the in flight crew as well. My last flight with them was a prime example of how their frustrations reflect in passenger service.

They seriously need to turn around the moral of the worker in order to return to profitability. Make the customer want to return and fly with them not drive them to other carriers
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Post by ndb »

I think you're all fantasizing about Air Canada disappearing. Here's a hint. Look at the emblem for the liberal party of canada:

http://www.liberal.ca/

Look familiar? Do you see that emblem on the tails of any aircraft near you? The liberals aren't about to allow Quebec-based Air Canada go broke, especially with an election looming.

The liberals know quite well they've got to spend what it takes to buy the quebec votes to get re-elected. Read your newspaper.

Sure, Air Canada is a mess. But a hundred years from now, when we're all dead, Air Canada will still be here, and it will likely still be a mess.
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Post by Right Seat Captain »

I'd like to think that the government would help, but it won't It doesn't want to get back into the mess it was when it was a crown corporation. The governement has no business tangling in the affiard of AC. More than half the businesses based in Canada have a maple leaf in their logo, probably since its our national emblem? Look at the difference:
Image
Image

I don't think Quebecers care about AC anymore than the rest of the country does. Despite the scandals going on, the Liberals are more concerned with winning votes from the west, since that's where they'll loose. In fact they've lost more confidence from the west than in quebec over the scandal. They feel more alienated, and rightly so, since so much attention and money is already being spent in Quebec.

Perhaps you should read the newspaper a little more closely.
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Post by Spiraldive »

Redwine:

Your post epitomizes the weird duality of the canadian public's expectations of AC.

"On AC I want all the service, from the first-run movies right down to snappy new designer livery on all the employees, but I want to pay jet-blue prices. Of course, if I fly Wetjet, peanuts and T-shirts are fine, you get what you pay for."

Mind you these days, a meal, a movie, and lots of free booze just might be enough to get the travelling public to overlook the snarkyness of the inflight crews. Used to be just the "Montreal sky-hags" you had to look out for, now unhappy employees are a lot more common across the board.

Yes, many of AC's employees have an attitude problem. I know a number of ramp guys in calgary that are not very happy right now. Mostly because the hugely overtstaffed Canadian rampside workers in YVR took their jobs during the takeover and they were forced to move. These are not rich "union jobs", they might clear 60$ a day, if they union has let them on the full-time list yet. (side note to all you union supporters out there - unions are in it for themselves and would rather have lots of overtime for the senior guys than allow junior guys to join the full-time cadre).

Having said all that, the majority of employees both from AC and CDN are good people. And as pilots we should be hoping the AC model is fixable, if only because all the other "discount" models out there start the "discounting" with pilot wages and benefits and work their way down.

A good friend of mine, who retired from a long career with AC, shakes his head at the Westjet thing. In his words "those guys might see some money now and have a decent life, but if the company goes under-and they all might sooner or later, they will have nothing. When they retire, they will have no income. For that model to work, Westjet pilots should be getting paid MORE than AC pilots, so they can take care of their future on their own."

He went on to list the airlines in Canada that have folded over the years and left the employees holding the bag. Canada3000 being the latest one.

Jetsgo next?
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