Dirtbag operators and their training bonds

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Cold and Dark
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Dirtbag operators and their training bonds

Post by Cold and Dark » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:40 pm

When you run into one of these wonderful companies it is imperitive you consult a legal professional before you quit. Someone such as http://www.dismissal.ca/ can offer a wealth of information.

Have your opinion of lawyers, but there can be a time when they will be your best friend. Again, you must get advice prior to resigning.

Good luck
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lyncher
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Post by lyncher » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:46 pm

2 years for a PCC then another 2 for a PCC or 12000$ for the PPC :roll:
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bmc
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Post by bmc » Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:05 am

Not sure if you're complaining about dirt bag companies or companies that post traing bonds.

Some international airlines post training bonds and want to ensure they're not a charity to train pilots for free. As I understand it, there's a sliding scale of payback over a given period of time.

Training is expensive.

As for dirt bag companies, rant away. There's no shortage of them around.
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Post by bigredone » Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:17 am

Or you could honour your commitment and make it a non-issue.
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Post by sheephunter » Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:53 am

I admit that I know squat about the "bond" situation. On the other hand I have operated camps in the north for more than half my life and see that there are almost zero returning twin otter pilots from summer to summer. A friend with the charter company says they are constantly training pilots and have them just until they can get gone somewhere else. Everyone talks job security, but how do these companies survive if they can't keep anyone longer than 8 or 12 months? Oh, I know, charge us outfitters more.

I'm not as much for the companies as for seeing a few guys with a few more hours hang around.

I would have guessed that there would be at least some kind of contract if not the "bond" trying to keep them to stay until they are at least somewhat productive. 2-3 years? I realize everyone wants to fly these fancy planes to fancy cities and live "downtown" but isolation to me is a place with no raods, no stores, no bars, no women and definitely not daily commercial flights and this is usually where an aviation career begins. There really aren't many jobs around today in complete isolation.

You guys pay the college to get this far and when you're done head north where someone provides you with a $2M aircraft, a million + acres to fly around in virtually by yourself, an opportunity to do what you have been educated to do. They provide you the hours and experience to further your careers and the first chance you get, you jump ship. I guess it's always been an age old problem that it takes money to buy loyalty.

So, why wouldn't you figure this as continued education and be prepared to pay for it. Do these companies not have bonuses for staying longer? I don't know. If you stay the term you sign up for do you not get your bond back?

Or is it like a professional athlete that signs up with zero professional experience for more money than ever imaginable at that point in his life, happens to have a good year and after one succesfull season on a 3 year contract figures it's time to re-negotiate?

There should be somewhere in the middle that it is good for everyone. Just my very week opinion and observation. Oh yeah, if everyone did what they said they would do, we wouldn't need lawyers to tell us what to do.

OK, now give me a blast.
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Cold and Dark
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Post by Cold and Dark » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:09 am

Not complaining about training bonds. If one is being used as leverage, you must seek advice. If I was an employer, I would use them also.
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bmc
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Post by bmc » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:32 am

A friend of mine got stung on a bond. He was committed to a bond on the Falcon 50 for three years. In his last year, he was offered right seat with Easyjet here in Europe. He paid as agreed, but it didn't feel good.
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Post by Hedley » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:29 am

Companies that pay poorly do have a tough time keeping pilots around.

If they paid better, pilots wouldn't be so quick to jump ship.
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Post by MUSKEG » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:47 am

Sheephunter. I imagine you own the outfit you operate right? Now tell me how you keep your long term guides? Although the analogy is a bit different because the only upgrade so to speak after being a sheep hunter is to be a sheep hunter with a different outfitter, so you pay good money to keep said guide, right. Why should I stay on longer flying rotten meat, dealing with arrogant hunters, and many many times pushing weather because thats usually what it takes to get the job done when Joe blow is getting the same money to fly pavement to pavement in a shirt and tie. Don't get me wrong I much prefer to fly in the rocks but when the continued exposure to increased risk is not rewarded finacially it soon becomes a no brainer. My best days flying have all been in the mountains but if I needed to do it all over again I would get out of dodge asap and go airlines where although they don't respect you any more that in charter, at least you have a schedule, pension, and the ability to have a life even in your working years. That I imagine is most charter pilots biggest complaint. You are a slave and when they say jump you jump no matter what you have going on in your life at the present time.No concideration, poor pay and no reward for risk makes for a short employmeny records. I do not see this changing until we get a changing of present owners and or managers who for the most part came up through the old system where pilots where at the bottom of the list.
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Post by sheephunter » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:14 am

Hedley,

Point taken and it's what I don't understand? Why do these companies not pay more after the two or three years. They know the guys have been looking for at least a year before they got there. So save money by not training new pilots and put that money toward the one they're keeping.

At the same time guys can't go for 3 years and leave after two. They do have an obligation when they sign up. There'll be another job in a year.

On the other hand, who wants to fly with a guy that doesn't want to be there?
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Cold and Dark
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Post by Cold and Dark » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:30 am

Lets not confuse the problem with the issue. If you wish to terminate your employment for a good reason, seek advice.
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GroundSpeed
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Post by GroundSpeed » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:44 am

Please someone tell me what company can justify a 3 year bond on an aircraft unless its a jet or a large turbo prop. As far as seeking legal council before thinking about leaving I couldn't agree with you more, I know of a few people that have had some luck with this route it's worth a try. : :smt039
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Post by Cat Driver » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:53 am

Wouldn't it make more sense to get legal advice before signing any agreement?
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Post by just another pilot » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:11 pm

I don't think that training bonds (contracts) are a bad deal; although their fainess depends on their length and pay scale. However, money of front aka Jetsco is criminal and undermines the position of pilots as a whole. (Not to slam former Jetsco guys - desparate times call for desparate measures.) It is a reflection of an industry that needs some ethical standards for both sides.
It all depends on the pilot willing to sign. If it is not fair contrct, don't sign it and move on. This can only be done by individuals who have developed some standards of ethical and principled behavior that guide their decisions. Employers in ANY industry will always seek the maximum for the minimum, therefore it is up to pilots to raise the minimum. Eventually, companies will not find pilots willing to sign seemingly outrageous bonds and they will be forced to modify them. And for you guys that sign contracts - honour your signiture and word. Any future employer should respect your integrity.
As for pushing safety, your duties are to minimums - no more. If it is suggested or required that you somehow work beyond safety, you have recourse.
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Post by Cat Driver » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:26 pm

If it is suggested or required that you somehow work beyond safety, you have recourse.
When that start?

The only recourse I've ever known of for refusing to fly beyond your or the regs limits was unemployment with a lot of companies.
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Post by JBI » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:09 pm

...
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Last edited by JBI on Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

just another pilot
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Post by just another pilot » Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:36 pm

Jeese Cat, you know what? If I got fired for not going below minimums, or fired and blacklisted for not doing something blatantly unsafe, I would look at another career. At least I would be around to make that choice. There are a number of impressionable pilots that read these posts Cat. I hope that you are not implying that it is preferrable to break regulations and risk injury or death rather than face unemployment?
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Post by xsbank » Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:41 pm

If you ever read any other post by Cat you would realize that's exactly the opposite to anything he's ever espoused here.

He always prioritizes safety. Sorry to steal your thunder, Cat.
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Post by Cat Driver » Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:09 pm

No problem xsbank, I'm glad just another pilot posted that because sometimes I am not clear enough in my comments.

So lets clear this up......

Being a pilot in Canada at the small carrier charter level is a very lonely place for many pilots, not only do they have to spend far to much time away from their wife and children trying to scratch out an existance they are far to often all alone when it comes to making decision on where to draw the line with employers who use intimidation to try and force them to fly in contrevention of law not to mention common sense.

It is real lonely knowing that you have two choices....fly the trip against your better judjement and or against the rules or end up unemployed with no way to support your family.

If you end up without a job because you would not break the rules you have no one to turn to for help because there is no one to turn to.

Just to let everyone understand my position on this I personally would like to see these crooked operators sitting in jail for living off the misery of others.

If an employer asks you to fly against the rules or your own safety comfort zone tell them to fu.k off and walk away and leave the airplane sitting there.

Remember it won't get better, it will only get worse if you allow them to use you.

So there you have it.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Post by Cold and Dark » Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:00 pm

Quote:

As for pushing safety, your duties are to minimums - no more. If it is suggested or required that you somehow work beyond safety, you have recourse.

Cat is on track. When requested, required or even tricked into doing something illegal, park the plane. When it comes down to it, the company has a huge book that says time and time again they are not responsible for your airplane. You have no recourse, the spineless pricks will not help you.
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Post by Cat Driver » Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:17 pm

Cold and dark never in all my years in aviation did anyone ever do anything to back me up when I refused to endanger myself and the airplane, passengers.

In fact I quit jobs and never even got the pay that was owed to me.

But fu.kem I'm still alive and I never banged up an aircraft fixed or rotary wing.

The only time I ever walked off a flying job due to an owner trying to itimidate me and actually received at least some compliments from a regulator was in England several years ago, but I was still stuck with my airfare back home.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Post by sheephunter » Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:36 pm

Muskeg,

Yes, own my outfit. Respect your opinion. Think you'd end up flying the rocks again eventually. Don't think you'd look as good in a tie. The ball cap and wool sweater is way more comfortable.

As for guides, I try to pay them the best I can afford which in the past has been at least as good and in some cases above industry standard. My regulars come at the beginning of the season and haven't even asked what they're getting paid.

Loosing my head guide this year after 14 years. At 67, says he's too old. I don't think so, but at that I'm grateful for his years of dedicated service. The down side is I started training a younger guide last year knowing this was coming and will train one more this year just to fill the boots of one. Don't have to explain to me what's cheaper. Turnovers are brutal on equipment.

For me, I just like to do what I say I will do both personally and in business and when I say I'm not flying, I'm not. Fire me.
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Post by Lurch » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:21 pm

Cat Driver wrote:The only time I ever walked off a flying job due to an owner trying to itimidate me and actually received at least some compliments from a regulator was in England several years ago, but I was still stuck with my airfare back home.
Cat you didn't, Hopefully this is as far as that can of worms will go.

Mcrit please stay away from this one. :smt117
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Post by Cat Driver » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:37 pm

Lurch, I'm not to concerned about the crap that mcrit found that the owner of that airplane told someone to cover up the truth.

Anyone who knows me and my partners know exactly what hapened with that airplane and it sure as hell was not us doing anything illegal or stupid...I refused to do something illegal and that is that...

Can you imagine us running an engine without oil ressure....hell that would be the end of our business.

By the way all I really lost on that one was the cost of my return airfare, we collected around 30,000 pounds for the several months of work we did getting the airplane airworthy enough for a ferry permit.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

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Post by just another pilot » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:49 pm

Yes XBank, I have read many of Cat Driver's posts. That is why my post was in the form of a question. Cat Driver, I know you always have the best intentions with your posts.
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