Paying for a flying position…

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Main Gear
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Paying for a flying position…

Post by Main Gear » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:39 pm

Under paid ramp job vs. Flight Instructor Rating vs. Buying PPC/Type Rating

I may be missing something, but either way you are paying for a flying position:

Ramp: Underpaid at least $5/hour multiplied by 2000 hours a year = $10,000

Flight Instructor Rating: $5000+

Buying PPC/Type: $5000+

I think that working an under paid ramp job for a flying position is just smoke and mirrors to paying for your own PPC. Most companies would not be able to get non-pilots to work these positions for minimum wage, so what they save on the rampies wages pays for their training when their number is up. If a rampie works for s**t wages, how is it any different than paying for your PPC?

Funny how you are not qualified with a fresh commercial out of school, but do a year or so on the ramp, and you’re good to go, even though by then you’re not even current.

To me it’s just manipulation at its best. I think that if more pilots had the cash, they would just buy their way….and I don’t even know now if that’s ok or not
:shock:
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Post by THEICEMAN » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:46 pm

Timing & luck! If you buy a PPc there is a chance you can get on board or not....these days, you might have a better chance! Being an instructor is a more conservative choice....
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partII

Post by THEICEMAN » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:10 pm

But....the common problem with being an instructor is the whole "multi issue". Pending on the school you teach, you are most probably gonna have to wait in line to teach & build Multi! Forcing you to eventually spend more!ALSO...some schools already have retired airline pilots or AME @ majors, who teach multi. This makes it difficult for the young guys to build Multi.....all depends on the school.

Ramp...well depends where?? If it's close to home & your eventually gonna be upgraded to a PC-12, King Air, Twin-Otter or Navajo....then go for it! Personally, I would not go half way across the country for a ramp job! I would only move if it were a flying job..


Buying a PPc is not the most respectable way of commecing your career...but if you can get the job...well do it....do what u gotta do!
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Re: Paying for a flying position…

Post by TheEvilTwin » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:19 pm

Sounds like a winnipeg metro operator! LOL Go pump gas, you'll still be making more money than one of the FOs!! :lol:


Main Gear wrote:Under paid ramp job vs. Flight Instructor Rating vs. Buying PPC/Type Rating

I may be missing something, but either way you are paying for a flying position:

Ramp: Underpaid at least $5/hour multiplied by 2000 hours a year = $10,000

Flight Instructor Rating: $5000+

Buying PPC/Type: $5000+

I think that working an under paid ramp job for a flying position is just smoke and mirrors to paying for your own PPC. Most companies would not be able to get non-pilots to work these positions for minimum wage, so what they save on the rampies wages pays for their training when their number is up. If a rampie works for s**t wages, how is it any different than paying for your PPC?

Funny how you are not qualified with a fresh commercial out of school, but do a year or so on the ramp, and you’re good to go, even though by then you’re not even current.

To me it’s just manipulation at its best. I think that if more pilots had the cash, they would just buy their way….and I don’t even know now if that’s ok or not
:shock:
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Post by sprucegoose » Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:48 pm

Well guys and girls the question is one of ethics and moral.

Do you decide to pay for an instructor rating (the same way you paid for your multi or IFR rating BTW) and explore a very particular area of flying: learning to fly. If your passionate its a nice way of giving back to the flying community if you apply yourself.

Do you decide to work the ramp the same way when some one starts in a lawyer office you start with the shitty work and understand ''the ropes''.

Do you pay for a specific training on an A/C (PPC). Something the company would normally write off in there taxes. Would you pay to work @ Mcdonald specific equipment but then getting a better position offered at Wendy's quit and pay again. Remember its to the advantage of any company (flying or not) to have employees that don’t have the freedom of movement because their financially bounded, that way they can get away with more.

Its an individual choice, and a hard one when you start. But remember the whole thing started when one pilot decided to do it and it snowball from there. Our individual choices have an impact on our professional community.

So instead of fishing around forums to eventually find someone that says a comment that helps you rationalize a decision. Maybe you should take the time to reflect and find a decision your guts feel its right, and not absolutely try to find the easy way. If everybody does that I could only imagine a positive outcome.
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Post by Cat Driver » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:25 pm

If you are a customer paying for flight training on a very expensive multi engine airplane who would you want for your instructor?

A retired airline pilot or an instructor who has no experience on multi engine airplanes?
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Post by cinical » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:38 pm

A retired airline pilot hands down.

Too many people think that getting a commercial license should automatically allow you to start flying an airplane for a living. Just because you can go out and buy a license doesn't mean you should be flying commercially. Anyone can go and buy a license. Not every commercial pilot with a new license should be flying people(or anything) around in expensive equipment. Although I dont like the pay at some places for non-flying positions, its a way for a company to find out more about a person other than....."they can afford a commercial license"

Paying for a PPC is admitting to yourself that your only worth the money that u can come up with to buy one, and that you want to work for a company that doesn't value you enough to train you.

But....I'm biased because I worked a non-flying position to start....my opinion only.
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Post by flyinphil » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:06 pm

Depends on the airline guy and what he has flown. I am 25 years removed from my last piston airplane and while I have around 18k hours on more than 1 engine, a kid with some solid training behind him is far more qualified and current than I.

I'll take the 1000-1500 hour instructor...
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Post by Cat Driver » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:39 pm

Maybe I should have limited it to an experienced pilot on light twins who has years of flying them behind them.

As to this:
a kid with some solid training behind him is far more qualified and current than I.
I agree that this would be a good choice....
.....

but where do you find an instructor that has had good solid training from a flight school?

At the cost of operating twin engine airplanes it is to expensive to really train them.

Then again I might be out to lunch on this subject.
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Post by C-GGGQ » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:40 pm

flyinphil wrote:Depends on the airline guy and what he has flown. I am 25 years removed from my last piston airplane and while I have around 18k hours on more than 1 engine, a kid with some solid training behind him is far more qualified and current than I.

I'll take the 1000-1500 hour instructor...
My Multi IFR tester proved that, I passed my multi IFR, and we were coming into land and he took the controls and decided to land the aircraft he had "2000 hours in a seneca, and its just like riding a bike". My landing was less than graceful, but his was bad. Currency is everything, If as an instructor i only had 1000 hours but my last 500 was in that twin doesn't matter that you had 2000 hours in this plane 10 years ago, i'm probably gonna handle it better.
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Post by tofo » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:22 pm

why do you think TC can't fly a back course?
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Post by altiplano » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:36 pm

:smt015
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Post by altiplano » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:40 pm

tofo wrote:why do you think TC can't fly a back course?
The best post from tofo ever.
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Post by bob sacamano » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:42 am

If you mentioned instructor rating, why did you not include a float rating?
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Post by Airtids » Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:36 am

... or a multi-IFR? :roll:
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Post by just another pilot » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:57 pm

Or a commercial license?

So I guess the question is, where does it end?
I know it starts with being able to work for reward. That is the "commercial license." If I want to fly anything with more than one engine, I need a multi-engine endorsement to go with that license. Since most types of advanced aircraft are flown at high altitudes instrument conditions; I require an instrument rating. Should I choose to teach ab initio license requirements; I need the appropriate instructor rating. A pilot is required by TC to possess these basic skill sets/certifications in order to be employable. In most cases, these are blanket type endorsements/ratings OR in another word - generalized.
Depending on the operator, aircraft specific pilot training is required for that operator to generate revenue with a specific aircraft. Most industry has additional specific job training beyond their schooling/certification/degree/diploma. The biggest difference that I have experienced between aviation and other professions is that ther is no code of ethics in aviation. None. Both pilots and operators are guilty of misbehavior. Do I describe it as unethical? No, I don't because there are no standards set. That is why this topic is repeatedly dicussed. And it is why I constantly read/hear "do what it takes." Sorry, but that is an abdication of integrity and self respect, and it lowers the value of every working pilot. And it is one of the reasons I left aviation to become a teacher.
Should pilots be paying for PPC's? No. That is the responsibilty of the operator. Should pilots be signing bonds? Yes. Since it appears that many will rationalize their reasons for leaving too soon. Perhaps more to the point; if one looks at other industries - what an honest salary and work schedule can accomplish.
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Post by Main Gear » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:04 pm

bob sacamano wrote:If you mentioned instructor rating, why did you not include a float rating?
Paying for 50 or 100 hours is the issue.
Airtids wrote:... or a multi-IFR?
Won't don't all operators just have a cadet program :lol:

just another pilot wrote:Or a commercial license?

The biggest difference that I have experienced between aviation and other professions is that ther is no code of ethics in aviation. None. Both pilots and operators are guilty of misbehavior. Do I describe it as unethical? No, I don't because there are no standards set.
No Kidding. Dog eat dog pilots and operators taking advantage....this will never change.

I can understand the company wanting to get to know the person, but why underpay? Noboby off the street would work for these wages.

Rampies working for s**t wages are no better than people buying a PPC.
You can sugar coat it all you want, either way the operator is saving $$$$$.
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