Westjet near miss at LAX

Stoptheworld · Post by **Stoptheworld** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:07 am

Just heard this on QR77 in YYC and went to CTV.ca

Thank God that this thing didn't turn out a lot worse!

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... TopStories

Goose757 · Post by **Goose757** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:59 am

Wow, that could have been REALLY bad. Glad no one was hurt.

Curious though, why the heck would CTV have a picture of a WJ 737-200 next to an Air Canada DC-9 from 1997 in the article? I don't see how that has and relevance to the story, but thats the media for you.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:22 am

God I hate listening/reading media reports on aviation articles.

Doesn't sound half as scary as some of the near misses in LAX/ORD this year and last, but still safety was obviously compromised.

Read UAL737 pulling up 10 knots before Vr to get over a 747 that landed in front of them, 50 feet separation from tail-tail, I think that was BOS actually but still.... the Americans need a review of procedures in and around airports, there's been quite a few very close calls.

It's too bad liveatc archives doesn't have KLAX Tower/Ground.

...

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:44 am

With an American twist, and news video...

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?secti ... id=5578161

They of course try and throw as much blame as they can on "The plane coming in from Canada"

leftyxl · Post by **leftyxl** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:53 am

I have now heard three different accounts of this story and none of them make any sense.
I have yet to ever be cleared to land by a "ground controller"
as usual the media has this one all screwed up.

Goose757 · Post by **Goose757** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:58 am

Has CNN ruled out terrorism yet?

C-FABH · Post by **C-FABH** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:31 pm

The Chicago Tribune has a much better written article (well, at least it makes sense to me)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... 9487.story

Zapp Brannigan · Post by **Zapp Brannigan** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:36 pm

media = worst reporting of aviation accidents/incidents

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:58 pm

Without even reading the stories anyone who has flown in there can guess what happened.

I haven't flown there for some years but I bet the ATIS had some sort of land and hold short on it. They land on the outer runway, so after landing you have to cross the inner (departure) runway. Prior to crossing the inner departure runway you need a clearence from tower. If they switched over to ground early they wouldn't have heard anything.

My guess, they took the highspeed, switched over to ground then noticed a large piece of high speed metal coming towards them.

cossack · Post by **cossack** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:35 pm

This is why you don't switch frequencies on your own between closely spaced parallels: you're sucking the ground controller in. He should make sure he knows where you are, yes: but he is not expecting to talk to you until you're across the departure runway.

In YYZ right now when you land on 06R/24L even though 06L/24R is closed you must still wait for a crossing instruction and a frequency change from tower. Don't ever switch to ground on your own you're just asking for an earful and possibly worse when the runway reopens.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:29 pm

Alot of busy airports in the US with closely spaced parallel runways employ the same procedure. Stay with tower till cleared across the other runway. As has already been mentioned, never switch to ground until instructed to. If in doubt ASK!! Controllers will never give you a hard time for confirming something like a frequency change. I'm just glad this ended with only a couple of red faces and some elevated heartrates...

C-FABH · Post by **C-FABH** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:11 pm

bcflyer wrote:I'm just glad this ended with only a couple of red faces and some elevated heartrates...

And numerous investigations from several different agencies including the FAA. That's easy to overlook!

double-j · Post by **double-j** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:06 pm

C-FABH wrote:
bcflyer wrote:I'm just glad this ended with only a couple of red faces and some elevated heartrates...
And numerous investigations from several different agencies including the FAA. That's easy to overlook!

You will learn that that in the grand scheme of things is sweet FA!

jj

stopsquawk · Post by **stopsquawk** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:22 pm

Landing on 24R, traffic normally clears the runway at AA. You normally hear from tower during your landing role either to hold short of, or cleared across 24L. It's expected that you HOLD SHORT if you haven't heard any instructions, since you need a clearance to cross an active runway. It sounds to me like Westjet switched to ground before tower gave them the instructions. Ground most likely thought they had already crossed 24L, since traffic wouldn't be talking to ground until that point.

It's been a few years since I've flown into LAX, but I recall some very large, red, blinking stop indicators on AA between the 24's.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:27 pm

invertedattitude wrote:They of course try and throw as much blame as they can on "The plane coming in from Canada"

The blame deserves to be placed on those responsible, regardless of where they're from. If the WJ crew was on the wrong frequency, chances are it was at least partly their fault.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:06 am

If WestJet did switch to ground on their own, I personally would pin the primary blame on WestJet. But it depends how they checked in with ground.

"Hi ground WestJet 900 on AA holding short of 24L, looking for gate XX"

Or:

"Hi Ground WestJet 900 on AA looking for Gate XX"

Big difference

fogghorn · Post by **fogghorn** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:25 am

I saw one news article with wj stating that it had not yet been determined that the ac had actually x'd the hold short line. If that were the case, this whole thing would not be an issue, just how stupid do they think people are?? Also, how do you come within 15 metres of the departing ac if you are at a hold short line??

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:31 am

This is another one of those threads where posters seem to flame the media for not getting it correct and then jump in with both feet to condemn.

The sense I get is that a lot of the posters here are so perfect that they feel in a position to judge and condemn anyone who makes any sort of mistake.

Why dont we give the crew the benefit of the doubt here until
ALL the facts are in?

Cool Rythms! · Post by **Cool Rythms!** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:59 pm

MEDIA, MEDIA, MEDIA. They always have a way of blowing things way out of proportion. Its not about covering the story anymore, its about which network can get the best ratings!

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:34 pm

Well, the fact that the media stated that WJ has 1 million passengers a day....snicker, snicker...with 64 aircraft to 26 destinations....snicker..how the hell do you suppose we don't condem the media?

Did they get even get anything in their article right? I read something early this morning when they said the NW jet was doing 150 mph on the tarmac!?

That, I would like to see....from a distance.