Ottawa halts $1.6B upgrade of maritime patrol aircraft

[teacher]

All I have to say is WTF!!! The military doesn't have enough money to operate up to the capacity that it needs/wants and now this? I'm sure a few people around here remember the CF-5 money bond fire. Someone once told me that if you wanna see what will be sold, scraped or shut down in the military, just look at what is being upgraded or built. Replacing? Well, the USAF and RAAF are replacing their Orions with 737s I believe. The CF I imagine is considering single engine pilotless drones. Will these actually be able to replace an Auroras effectively? I don't know, I'm not an Air Force pilot.

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Ottawa halts $1.6B upgrade of patrol aircraft

Last Updated: Thursday, September 20, 2007 | 11:11 PM ET

CBC News

Ottawa has halted a $1.6-billion upgrade that would extend the life of Canada's fleet of Aurora patrol aircraft, CBC News has learned.

The 30-year-old Aurora fleet may be replaced with new planes.
(CBC)
The Department of National Defence has already spent more than half of the budget of the planned 10-year overhaul — adding $1 billion worth of new equipment, such as navigation systems and flight data recorders, to the 18 planes.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay on Thursday confirmed DND is considering winding down the 30-year-old fleet and replacing it with new planes.

"We want to make sure we have planes that can fly safely, planes that can continue to play an important role in surveillance," said MacKay.

Continue Article

The fleet monitors Canada's coasts, watching for illegal fishing, polluters, drug smugglers and foreign vessels challenging Canada's sovereignty.

Critics say Ottawa shouldn't waste the many millions of dollars already spent on upgrades.

"What kind of plane might replace the Aurora? Is it one that's going to be more costly or less costly? So at this point I think we have a lot of unanswered questions," said John Williamson, federal director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

NDP MP Joe Comartin said he thinks the federal auditor general should be involved in this kind of decision.

"There has to be accountability found," he said.

Retired air force pilot Terry Wiseman said replacing the fleet will take years. In the interim, the Auroras will continue to age without the upgrades necessary to continue patrolling as often as they should.

"As the Aurora is allowed to atrophy, its capabilities are allowed to atrophy, we're concerned that we will be deaf, dumb and blind in our northern regions," said Chester.

The Department of National Defence says it will make a decision by Nov. 20 on whether to replace the Auroras. Ottawa could face financial penalties if the hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts is cancelled.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/09/ ... grade.html

[WJflyer]

The Aurora Incremental Modernization Programme was started by the Liberals, FYI.

This is an example of the problems with one-off equipment for the Canadian Forces. It makes it more difficult to support and upgrade such equipment very difficult.

There are still massive holes in coverage with the current CP-140 fleet. Air Command is looking at long range UAV's to fill those holes. We have trialed quite a number of them already, and we have had unexpected success (we caught a cargo ship off the coast of BC illegally dumping oil once).

The plan was that the purchase of the UAV's will fill in the holes in coverage, and operate at the edges of the EEZ. If they see something unusual, the Aurora's would come in and have a closer look. The plan is to use the UAV's more of a detection net, with the Aurora's as the response unit.

Mackay from the article is saying we may be getting new birds to replace them; the most likely replacement is the P-8 Poseidon (based of the Boeing 737-800). Since the P-8 is slated for in service in 2013, canning the project now to save money for a replacement is a wise move. Most of the surface surveillance equipment is still very usable; it's the ASW stuff that is outdated, from my understanding.

Edit: From my quick number crunching, we can get around 12 RQ-4 Global Hawk's for the money we saved from canning the AIMP, factoring life cycle and a maintenance contract. So we are in effect, adding capability.

[CAPGEN]

WJFlyer -

Will they be able to hunt subs the same way as they did in the Aurora with a faster aircraft like the 737?

[I Like Myself]

WJFlyer -

Will they be able to hunt subs the same way as they did in the Aurora with a faster aircraft like the 737?

I agree, I really can not picture an aircraft like the 737-800 doing the 60 degree turns 300ft off the water at the speeds the Aurora does them.
Nor can I see a jet having anywhere near the endurance at a few hundred feet (Where the Aurora does a lot of it's work).

[WJflyer]

WJFlyer -

Will they be able to hunt subs the same way as they did in the Aurora with a faster aircraft like the 737?

It is not the best solution, AFAIK, but it is the only modern one out there. EADS has a very nebulous solution with a A319 MPA, but it exists only in drawings and in EADS imagination.

Sub hunting should not be a problem; The Boeing 737 platform offers plenty of endurance, and the extra fuel tanks being installed will further increase range. What current maritime patrol aircraft do is when sub hunting, they drop sonobouys in a pattern on the sea. These sonobouys then listen and triangulate the position of a submarine. Then, from the position of these sonobouys, the aircraft flies over the position, and drops a torpedo. The torpedo then engages and goes out to hunt the submarine, and attack it when found. A faster jet aircraft will have better dash speed moving from contact to contact, reducing reaction time, but it can eat up endurance. The UK has been using the Nimrod, which is a jet aircraft for quite some time, with good success.

There's been recent advances in dropping torpedoes from medium to high altitude, that the USN is working on. Very interesting stuff.

The only other viable option I see is one from Japan: the Kawasaki P-X. However, Japan's constitution prevents the export of military hardware, and this is definitely military hardware. So unless they change their constitution (of which I have heard rumblings thereof), they can't sell to us.

[Four1oh]

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the role of a sub hunting aircraft typically a low level mission?? And, isn't a turboprop far more efficient to be using at low level compared to a turbofan?

[CD]

Someone once told me that if you wanna see what will be sold, scraped or shut down in the military, just look at what is being upgraded or built.

Isn't that the truth...

Hmmmm... with all the money being poured into facilities at NDHQ, maybe that will be the next thing scrapped. Then, we can just rely entirely on our friends to the South, since we're buying all of their products for commonality anyway...

[Valhalla]

Here's a solution that makes too much sense to make sense. Do like the Australians, Swedes, US homeland security, Japanese etc... and buy a Canadian airplane heavily modified in Canada - the Dash 8. The Q400 is FAR FAR cheaper purchase and operate than an Aurora or a B737 is only marginally slower than the 737. Plus you can toss it around at 300'AGL, and mod it to do aerial drops for search and rescue.

For those at the north end of Pearson, peak out on the ramp, and you can see a bunch of brand new ones being modified for various foreign governments.

[teacher]

If that is the case than great, but like I saw on the TV segment what do we do in the mean time. 2013 might be entry into the USAF for the P-8 but the CF (if the purchase gets approved or is even considered) would be when? 2014-15? Thats 7-8 years until the first aircraft arrives, than how long until all the Auroras are retired and the P-8 is fully operational? 2016-17? That's a long time to fly a piece of kit in it's current configuration.

I just hope it's not another case of a capability being lost in the long wait for a replacement. With $1 billion already spent would much be gained by paying out cancelation fees and not completing the contract?

Again, not a CF pilot, just an arm chair critic

[Valhalla]

[conehead]

Canada's New Government Announces $74M in Construction Projects For 14 Wing Greenwood
Written by DND/CF
Thursday, 20 September 2007
GREENWOOD, N.S. - The Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, today announced plans for an estimated $74 million investment in infrastructure upgrades at 14 Wing Greenwood. These projects include the construction of a new control tower, fire hall, health care facility, and refuelling tender garage and maintenance facility, as well as the recapitalization of the Hornell Centre, which houses the Wing’s operation centre.

“14 Wing Greenwood plays a vital role in search and rescue operations on the East Coast, as well as long range surveillance patrol operations in Canada and abroad,” said Minister MacKay. “This $74 million investment to modernize Greenwood’s infrastructure further demonstrates this government’s commitment to the men and women of the Canadian Forces, and provides substantial economic benefit to Nova Scotia.”

"These projects will provide our Canadian Forces with new facilities and modern equipment,” said General Rick Hillier, the Chief of Defence Staff. "They will better enable our serving men and women to monitor Canada’s coastal waters, and perform vital search and rescue missions on the east coast."

The construction of a new control tower, fire hall, health care facility, and refuelling tender garage and maintenance facility will replace facilities that no longer meet current and future requirements, and improve services and operations at the Wing. The recapitalization of the Hornell Centre will significantly improve central operations and training.

These projects are in the preliminary development phase and contracts have not yet been tendered. It is still too early to provide an accurate estimate of potential employment opportunities for the region. This investment will benefit the local economy, and details will be more accurately established during the implementation phase.

The Department of National Defence and Defence Construction Canada will conduct fair and transparent competitive processes in order to initiate these construction projects.

[Team Firecracker]

The coast guard will be using d-8's identical to the 1 in that pic for coastal patrol. I talked to the engineer on 1 from the east coast last week. he said thet'll have 1 on the west coast by the end of the year. as for ASW...dunno.

[WJflyer]

Here's a solution that makes too much sense to make sense. Do like the Australians, Swedes, US homeland security, Japanese etc... and buy a Canadian airplane heavily modified in Canada - the Dash 8. The Q400 is FAR FAR cheaper purchase and operate than an Aurora or a B737 is only marginally slower than the 737. Plus you can toss it around at 300'AGL, and mod it to do aerial drops for search and rescue.

For those at the north end of Pearson, peak out on the ramp, and you can see a bunch of brand new ones being modified for various foreign governments.

Australia is committed to the P-8 Posideon... And the Swedes use the CASA C-212 Aviocar as their ASW platform. The Japanese use the P-3, but have a replacement developed in the P-X.

The Dash-8 doesn't have much in the way of range and internal space. The equipment used for ASW takes up a lot of space.

Far cheaper often means in military parlance, far less capable. We are separating the SAR and ASW role into two distinct platforms, the requirements for both jobs differ significantly. In order to provide the level of coverage that we want with a MPA based off the Dash 8, we would first have to buy more, and secondly, build more bases across the coast. So in the end, we would have to spend more to do the same job.

From my understanding of the AIMP upgrades:

AIMP Block 1 is completed and installed on all aircraft (consisting of the replacing of high-frequency (HF) radio gear, cockpit voice recorder, flight data recorder and SRX antennae-associated components)

AIMP Block 2 installation is done on one aircraft (consisting of an upgrade to a Glass cockpit and new navigation suite as well as the new communications management system. Also, the matching flight deck simulator is built and the avionics maintenance trainer is set-up)

The MX-20 EO/IR, originally part of block 3 was installed as well.

One aircraft is currently at L3 for Block 3 upgrades (new radar, ESM, MAD, acoustic system and the data management system)

From digging around, it is my understanding that the government will do a cost/value analysis and see if it makes economic sense to can the AIMP, and proceed immediately to the UAV / new aircraft mix. The life of these birds are already near the end; the previous government canned the Aurora Life Extension project, which involved replacing the wings and the tail, so the demise of the fleet is inevitable and is coming fast. This is something that all P-3 users have to deal with. The USN is retiring P-3s at such a rate that the P-8 might not even be ready when all P-3s are time-expired.

So right now, I am thinking the government is thinking about prioritizing the purchase of new long range UAV's to act as a interim replacement if you ask me. These UAV's will then supplement whatever is fully replacing the Aurora's if you ask.

[Valhalla]

Australia is committed to the P-8 Posideon... And the Swedes use the CASA C-212 Aviocar as their ASW platform. The Japanese use the P-3, but have a replacement developed in the P-X.

The Dash-8 doesn't have much in the way of range and internal space. The equipment used for ASW takes up a lot of space.

Look closely and you'll see that the Dash 8 MPA in the pic is for the Swedes to replace their ageing C-212s. With internal fuselage and long range tanks, the Dash-8 can stay in the air up to 14hrs. Lots more room internally vs the C-212. Granted, the Dash-8 may not be the ideal sub sinker (it can detect them just fine). But that's the problem with the P-3 or the P-8 in that they are primarily sub hunters, when wants really needed 99.99% of the time is surveillance - a role the Dash-8 is ideally suited for. It's been tried and tested in service with Surveillance Australia for the last 10 years.

I'm not saying that we don't need sub sinking capability in Canada. By all means, we need P-3s to have the capability to protect out borders by force, if needed. But when was the last time we actually sunk a sub in Canadian waters from the air (or needed to)? So, why use sub hunters for coastal surveillance when the real threats are illegal polluters, illegal fishers, smugglers, pirates etc. in our waters?

[WJflyer]

Australia is committed to the P-8 Posideon... And the Swedes use the CASA C-212 Aviocar as their ASW platform. The Japanese use the P-3, but have a replacement developed in the P-X.

The Dash-8 doesn't have much in the way of range and internal space. The equipment used for ASW takes up a lot of space.

Look closely and you'll see that the Dash 8 MPA in the pic is for the Swedes to replace their ageing C-212s. With internal fuselage and long range tanks, the Dash-8 can stay in the air up to 14hrs. Lots more room internally vs the C-212. Granted, the Dash-8 may not be the ideal sub sinker (it can detect them just fine). But that's the problem with the P-3 or the P-8 in that they are primarily sub hunters, when wants really needed 99.99% of the time is surveillance - a role the Dash-8 is ideally suited for. It's been tried and tested in service with Surveillance Australia for the last 10 years.

I'm not saying that we don't need sub sinking capability in Canada. By all means, we need P-3s to have the capability to protect out borders by force, if needed. But when was the last time we actually sunk a sub in Canadian waters from the air (or needed to)? So, why use sub hunters for coastal surveillance when the real threats are illegal polluters, illegal fishers, smugglers, pirates etc. in our waters?

1. Where's the extra space for the fuel coming from? Oh right, internal cabin space. That means you can carry less equipment needed for ASW work. The Boeing 737 is plenty big enough and has space for future growth. It also has plenty of range as well.

2. You don't know how many times foreign subs have appeared in our waters in the past decade. Everyone loves to run subs through our waters, from the Americans, to the Brits, French, Russians, etc. We need a way to track them and monitor them, as often, such nations do not tell us they are operating their subs in our waters.

If we need a platform to do surface surveillance, a UAV would be more appropriate and cost effective. The plan was and is to purchase UAV's for coastal patrol work. They will be supplemented by regular fixed wing maritime patrol aircraft that are capable of doing ASW work.

[ourkid2000]

AIMP Block 1 is done on all the Auroras.........

Blocks 2 & 3 have been completed on 4 auroras with 1 a few months from being completed so that would make 5. There is another Aurora just starting Blocks 2 & 3 so thats at least 6 in the fleet within the next 6 months.

[Valhalla]

1. Where's the extra space for the fuel coming from? Oh right, internal cabin space. That means you can carry less equipment needed for ASW work. The Boeing 737 is plenty big enough and has space for future growth. It also has plenty of range as well.

The fuselage of the Q400 is 107 feet long (or 3 feet longer than the Aurora). It's not a small machine.

2. You don't know how many times foreign subs have appeared in our waters in the past decade. Everyone loves to run subs through our waters, from the Americans, to the Brits, French, Russians, etc. We need a way to track them and monitor them, as often, such nations do not tell us they are operating their subs in our waters.

The Dash-8 MPA will do just as good of a job tracking subs as the P-3 or the P-8. That's what they are being used for. Its the equipment that detects the subs, not the airplane. And the same detection equipment as is found in other MPAs around the world is being installed in Dash 8's.

Again, I'll go back to my original post and say it's about supporting a built-in-Canada solution that is currently working very well in other parts of the world. However, I do realize that's a little bit "outside the box" thinking for our Canadian government...

Question for you, WJflyer - what's the fuel burn on a B737-800 cruising at 2000' ASL where MPAs spend most of their time?

[Bulls Eye]

The fleet monitors Canada's coasts, watching for illegal fishing, polluters, drug smugglers and foreign vessels challenging Canada's sovereignty.

Actually, the majority of this airborne surveillance work along Canada's coast and EEZ is not done by DND; it is done by other government departments such as Transport Canada, the RCMP, and DFO through their operations with Provincial Airlines.

[WJflyer]

1. Where's the extra space for the fuel coming from? Oh right, internal cabin space. That means you can carry less equipment needed for ASW work. The Boeing 737 is plenty big enough and has space for future growth. It also has plenty of range as well.

The fuselage of the Q400 is 107 feet long (or 3 feet longer than the Aurora). It's not a small machine.

Look at the floor space within the Q400. It is noticeably much more narrow than the P-3 and the Boeing 737. Also, where's the fuel tanks going to go? In the cabin? With the Boeing P-8 MMA, and the proposed EADS A319 MPA, extra fuel tanks are going under the main deck in the cargo bay. Both the A319 and the Boeing 737-800 has three times the cargo volume compared to the Dash 8. More room means more fuel. And for the long coast line we have, we need extra range.

2. You don't know how many times foreign subs have appeared in our waters in the past decade. Everyone loves to run subs through our waters, from the Americans, to the Brits, French, Russians, etc. We need a way to track them and monitor them, as often, such nations do not tell us they are operating their subs in our waters.

The Dash-8 MPA will do just as good of a job tracking subs as the P-3 or the P-8. That's what they are being used for. Its the equipment that detects the subs, not the airplane. And the same detection equipment as is found in other MPAs around the world is being installed in Dash 8's.

Again, I'll go back to my original post and say it's about supporting a built-in-Canada solution that is currently working very well in other parts of the world. However, I do realize that's a little bit "outside the box" thinking for our Canadian government...

Question for you, WJflyer - what's the fuel burn on a B737-800 cruising at 2000' ASL where MPAs spend most of their time?

[/quote]

We need off the shelf. No more one offs. In short, let someone else foot the bill for research and development. We can latch onto the Boeing P-8 MMA, as it capabilities standpoint, would be an excellent replacement for the Aurora, and tacks on additional capability, such as ELINT.

The way I see is that the AIMP for the Aurora is pointless if not accompanied with ASLEP. We aren't doing the latter. So the government is perhaps being wise because we may in the end, be spending tax payers dollars on upgrades on an airframe that may only last a couple more years. Even if both those programs get the go ahead to continue, no matter what you do to a 27 year old airplane, it is still a 27 year old airplane. It needs replacement.

[Spokes]

The fleet monitors Canada's coasts, watching for illegal fishing, polluters, drug smugglers and foreign vessels challenging Canada's sovereignty.

Actually, the majority of this airborne surveillance work along Canada's coast and EEZ is not done by DND; it is done by other government departments such as Transport Canada, the RCMP, and DFO through their operations with Provincial Airlines.

Well, as far as west coast goes...

TC: Once in a while, but not too often.
RCMP: Never seen em do so. They are normally only out when there is something specific to go after.
PAL: Next to DND, the primary source of surveillance in the est coast eez.