Would You Leave a Flying Job For the Ramp?
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Would You Leave a Flying Job For the Ramp?
Hey guys,
Hypothetical situation here:
You're at a job and are flying a LOT; however, there are little/no opps for IFR or night flying. Also, little/no twin time possibility. All flying is day VFR, but you log a lot of time.
Assume you are offered a ramp job at a good carrier with opps for twin, SE/ME turbine, and mountain time. The CP says to you that there is likely a 2 year wait from ramp to F/O, but pilots and employees there say the wait will more than likely be less than 2 years.
Do you:
a) stay at the current job, fly a lot, and hope that you will be able to find a job that allows you to go straight into a F/O position; OR
b) take the ramp job, knowing that you could very well be on the ramp for 2 years; however, you'll go right seat in a turbine a/c, then move onto a twin. All flying is mountain flying.
Comments/opinions?
Hypothetical situation here:
You're at a job and are flying a LOT; however, there are little/no opps for IFR or night flying. Also, little/no twin time possibility. All flying is day VFR, but you log a lot of time.
Assume you are offered a ramp job at a good carrier with opps for twin, SE/ME turbine, and mountain time. The CP says to you that there is likely a 2 year wait from ramp to F/O, but pilots and employees there say the wait will more than likely be less than 2 years.
Do you:
a) stay at the current job, fly a lot, and hope that you will be able to find a job that allows you to go straight into a F/O position; OR
b) take the ramp job, knowing that you could very well be on the ramp for 2 years; however, you'll go right seat in a turbine a/c, then move onto a twin. All flying is mountain flying.
Comments/opinions?
"Never travel faster than your guardian angel can fly." - Mother Theresa
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You would have to have ROCKS in your head to even consider doing that.
Build time, that is what it is all about. The ramp thing is pure exploitation, plain and simple. No guarantees--what if they decide for whatever reason they don't like you then you're screwed. 2 years down the drain.
Get the PIC time and go somewhere else.
Just my opinion, but.....
Build time, that is what it is all about. The ramp thing is pure exploitation, plain and simple. No guarantees--what if they decide for whatever reason they don't like you then you're screwed. 2 years down the drain.
Get the PIC time and go somewhere else.
Just my opinion, but.....
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I've been in a similar situation. One thing I think is important with this career is to have a plan and a contigency- you never know when a well excecuted plan will fall apart. If you think that having 2000TT all SE VFR will get you a job you want ie/ FO turbine then why go through the effort of moving and loosing currency. However, if you want a change or think the oppertunity is better on the ramp than that is an option.
As well, plan to be on the ramp for 2 years. If its less then you will be happy but it could be that long or longer and you don't want to become bitter. The chief pilot is likely the best one to forecast when your upgrade would come, and he may know something the the other guys don't.
Cheers-GTF
As well, plan to be on the ramp for 2 years. If its less then you will be happy but it could be that long or longer and you don't want to become bitter. The chief pilot is likely the best one to forecast when your upgrade would come, and he may know something the the other guys don't.
Cheers-GTF
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I have a friend, who used to instruct. So he was collecting PIC time in SEVFR. He decided to go for a dispatch job for a company, and a year later is now co-joe on a Cheyenne, and logging multi-turbine time. Meanwhile many of his colleages who had higher total time ares till instructing, because they couldn't find flying jobs. So now in the grand scale of things, the one that 'demoted' himself out of a flying job is way ahead of the guys that have 3000 or single engine time.
Sometimes it does take a step back to get ahead. If a company will only hire pilots from within, usually from ramp or dispatch personell, where they are already familiar with the operation, it might be very difficult to get ahead, or past your current flying job. There is a point where single engine time, even though it is PIC time, is no longer useful. You don't learn as much in the 1000 hours from 2000 to 3000 flying a 172 VFR.
Sometimes it does take a step back to get ahead. If a company will only hire pilots from within, usually from ramp or dispatch personell, where they are already familiar with the operation, it might be very difficult to get ahead, or past your current flying job. There is a point where single engine time, even though it is PIC time, is no longer useful. You don't learn as much in the 1000 hours from 2000 to 3000 flying a 172 VFR.
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Please help me out here too because there is one thing that sort of gets to me, in which I really cant understand. Why in the world would a pilot who has ramp and flying experience, have to work on the ramp
for TWO YEARS!!!!! I can understand it if it were some new pilot with
250 hours or so with no experience, but why put a pilot with plenty of flight time on the ramp for soooooo long? A full time job plus over time is approximatly 2000 hours a year, now times that by 2 and that makes 4000 hours on the ramp before you can turn on the engine. Is it possible that two years on the ramp will make he/she a better pilot? Will working on the ramp for 4000 hours before you can fly, really help you to land better or make efficient and quality pilot making descisions? Yes I know that it helps one to know the operations of a company and to better understand aircraft performances, and responsibilities, and that is why I am NOT against working on the ramp. But for 2 years watching planes take-off and land, thats torture man.
Anyways, you'll have to excuse my little rant.
for TWO YEARS!!!!! I can understand it if it were some new pilot with
250 hours or so with no experience, but why put a pilot with plenty of flight time on the ramp for soooooo long? A full time job plus over time is approximatly 2000 hours a year, now times that by 2 and that makes 4000 hours on the ramp before you can turn on the engine. Is it possible that two years on the ramp will make he/she a better pilot? Will working on the ramp for 4000 hours before you can fly, really help you to land better or make efficient and quality pilot making descisions? Yes I know that it helps one to know the operations of a company and to better understand aircraft performances, and responsibilities, and that is why I am NOT against working on the ramp. But for 2 years watching planes take-off and land, thats torture man.
Anyways, you'll have to excuse my little rant.
Your One Darn Good Pilot
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Thanks for all the responses. Again this was a "hypothetical" situation, although I could be faced with this decision in the near future. 2 years is what the CP told me, but the employees there say it is less.
At my current job, all the time I am logging is PIC cross country. I have over 360 hours total right now, and can log anywhere from 40-+100 hours/month. Currently, the job is seasonal, but by next year, it will most likely be a year round gig. I know several colleagues from my company that have moved on to bigger and better, going straight into the right seat. Actually, one person went into the right seat of a jet (I know this is rare, but the fact that it happened makes me second-guess whether I should leave a flying job, for a ramp job).
I personally have nothing against working the ramp. I would spend 2 years no problem if it meant going into the right seat of some nice equipment. However, it seems that the norm is usually around 1 year or less.
Thanks again for all the comments, and keep them coming!
At my current job, all the time I am logging is PIC cross country. I have over 360 hours total right now, and can log anywhere from 40-+100 hours/month. Currently, the job is seasonal, but by next year, it will most likely be a year round gig. I know several colleagues from my company that have moved on to bigger and better, going straight into the right seat. Actually, one person went into the right seat of a jet (I know this is rare, but the fact that it happened makes me second-guess whether I should leave a flying job, for a ramp job).
I personally have nothing against working the ramp. I would spend 2 years no problem if it meant going into the right seat of some nice equipment. However, it seems that the norm is usually around 1 year or less.
Thanks again for all the comments, and keep them coming!
"Never travel faster than your guardian angel can fly." - Mother Theresa
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are you kidding? don't quit this job that is getting you valuable PIC time in order to go to a ramp job. so what if it is seasonal? that allows you to get a decent paying job for the winter. maybe even do something fun. don't go and work on the ramp. if your current job ends up being full time next season, then even better! spend your time between seasons doing something more interesting. You will thank yourself down the road! You will also enjoy flying a lot more if you have a little variety in your life! of course, it depends what your options are, and if this potential ramp job gets you into the right seat of a jet, (unlikely) well then that is your choice. but chances are, the ramp job is no different from most, in which case i say don't quit your PIC job for the ramp!
my $.02
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A pitfall you haven't considered is this:
LEt's say yu take the ramp job, and it goes well. You like the company, you work really hard, and they think, hey okay, let's upgrade the lad.
You are now driving the big iron. 704. Turbine. You've arrived. They still think highly of your abilities, and a captain slot opens up. Sdaly, yu have to have 2600 hours or so to get you ATPL. No command time. Sorry about that.
Keep at whatever will give you a little more time now. Then make the leap.
LEt's say yu take the ramp job, and it goes well. You like the company, you work really hard, and they think, hey okay, let's upgrade the lad.
You are now driving the big iron. 704. Turbine. You've arrived. They still think highly of your abilities, and a captain slot opens up. Sdaly, yu have to have 2600 hours or so to get you ATPL. No command time. Sorry about that.
Keep at whatever will give you a little more time now. Then make the leap.
An oppurtunity missed is an oppurtunity wasted....Keep at whatever will give you a little more time now. Then make the leap.
He says he does 100/hrs a month, I hope he already has his mandatory PIC time for his ATPL..
If he passes this chance, consider this, he'll be passed up on the next time he applies for the ramp.
With 360 hrs you may have enough PIC for the ATPL, but you won't have enough PIC for left seat up grade at most companies.
Also at 360 hrs TT why would you even worry about the mulit IFR time. I could see if you had 3000 hrs of all SEVFR with no contacts is other companies, then I might start looking at other options. Build some PIC time... atleast 1000 - 1500 hrs then worry about it. A lot of bigger companies have both the SEVFR and the Multi IFR, look you get on with them and work your way up. But for now keep flying and keep sending out the resumes and when something better comes along go for it.
If you really want to go work the ramp I'm sure there are hundreds of guys/girls who be happy to take the flying job off your hands.
Also at 360 hrs TT why would you even worry about the mulit IFR time. I could see if you had 3000 hrs of all SEVFR with no contacts is other companies, then I might start looking at other options. Build some PIC time... atleast 1000 - 1500 hrs then worry about it. A lot of bigger companies have both the SEVFR and the Multi IFR, look you get on with them and work your way up. But for now keep flying and keep sending out the resumes and when something better comes along go for it.
If you really want to go work the ramp I'm sure there are hundreds of guys/girls who be happy to take the flying job off your hands.
A T P L
The important one, and hard one: 25 hrs PIC x-ctry NIGHT (and you still need 100 hrs at night) Don't forget the 75 hrs instrument time too... (25 hrs in the sim can be credited) You were mentionning DAY VFR flying, so don't forget about these requirements.merlin wrote:With 360 hrs you may have enough PIC for the ATPL, but you won't have enough PIC for left seat up grade at most companies.
Going back to the dilemma: You HAVE a flying job? Keep it! I know too many dudes on the ramp who have been told in the beginning that they might have a shot at seat 6 mos. to a year after working their arses off on the ramp . For some, it has been almost 2 years now. It must be the biggest, juiciest carrot you could dangle in front of us low timers! I haven't bitten yet.
Keep the single job, build the time, and try to convince your employer to let you take the airplane out at night to fulfill your ATPL requirements (worth a shot, isn't it?)
That would be the case, if you already had a night endorsement before your CPL. Regardless, it's a toughie to get if you don't go out and do it on your own.merlin wrote:If you are smart you will have the 25 night x-country PIC by the time you finish your CPL training. The 100 night and 75 instrument will probably have to wait for the MIFR F/O job. Unless you go the instructor route, where you might get it.
Best of luck