SAS Q400 gear collapse AGAIN (Oct 27)

KISS_MY_TCAS · Post by **KISS_MY_TCAS** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:32 pm

Doesn't look to me from the video that the main gear collapsed, it looks like it never extended which explains the crash trucks and the prop feathered (with the engine running, feather is one notch before shutoff, the crew knew that wing was gonna meet pavement). Without a doubt it is suspicious that SAS is having all of the landing gear problems with the Q400, will be interesting to see what the final verdict is.

Boss Hawg · Post by **Boss Hawg** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:20 am

Wow great job on the landing and getting the passengers outta there. Compare with the video from the incident in September, these guys did a way better job IMO.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:52 am

Boss Hawg wrote:Wow great job on the landing and getting the passengers outta there. Compare with the video from the incident in September, these guys did a way better job IMO.

Big difference in the two incidents. The one in September the gear collapsed without warning. In this latest event the crew knew well in advance what was going to happen. You really can't compare the way the crews handled each one.

matrix · Post by **matrix** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:05 am

Looks like this incident is the nail in the coffin for the Q400 at SAS.

http://se.yhp.waymaker.net/sasgroup/rel ... ?id=155746

SAS removes Dash 8 Q400 from service permanently

Following the recent period of events involving aircraft of the Dash 8 Q400 type, SAS's management, following an unscheduled meeting of the Board of Directors held today, has decided to immediately discontinue the use of this type of aircraft.

"Confidence in the Q400 has diminished considerably and our customers are becoming increasingly doubtful about flying in this type of aircraft. Accordingly, with the Board of Directors' approval, I have decided to immediately remove Dash 8 Q400 aircraft from service," says Mats Jansson, President and Chief Executive Officer of SAS.

In January 2000, SAS was the first customer to use the Dash 8 Q400 in its traffic operations. The aircraft have accounted for approximately 5 percent of the Group's passengers. The aim is to replace traffic based on the Q400 by reallocating current aircraft in the SAS Group's fleet and by means of leasing.

"The Dash 8 Q400 has given rise to repeated quality-related problems and we can now conclude that the aircraft does not match our passengers' requirements concerning punctuality and regularity. SAS's flight operations have always enjoyed an excellent reputation and there is a risk that use of the Dash 8 Q400 could eventually damage the SAS brand," says John Dueholm, Deputy CEO of SAS.

Due to the decision, SAS's traffic services will be affected by flight cancellations in the period immediately ahead. The customers concerned will be given an opportunity to either rebook or have their tickets refunded. For detailed information about traffic services, reference is made to the airlines' various websites (http://www.sas.se http://www.sas.dk http://www.wideroe.no)
SAS Group Corporate Communication

Alex YCV · Post by **Alex YCV** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:20 am

It sort of looks like the truth comes out now. SAS dumps the planes, and will likely attempt to get Bombardier to take them back, yet the reason for these failures (almost exclusively with SAS) isn't known or hasn't been revealed.

SAS at this point has their own reputation to cover with their passengers, and appear to be playing the blame game at this point.

Boss Hawg · Post by **Boss Hawg** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:43 am

bcflyer wrote:
Boss Hawg wrote:Wow great job on the landing and getting the passengers outta there. Compare with the video from the incident in September, these guys did a way better job IMO.
Big difference in the two incidents. The one in September the gear collapsed without warning. In this latest event the crew knew well in advance what was going to happen. You really can't compare the way the crews handled each one.

Really? They had fire trucks and media standing by when they landed. The gear was down but they must have known there was some kind of problem. Maybe we're thinking of different incidents, weren't there 2 in Sept?

edit: This is the september one I'm referring to.
http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php/id- ... ml?forside

According to SAS, flight SK1209 was enroute from Copenhagen to Aalborg with 69 passengers and a crew of four when a problem with the aircraft's main landing gear was identified. The pilots prepared for a controlled emergency landing and, after landing, the right main gear collapsed

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:29 am

This also affects their sister company Wideroe. Looks like they will be getting rid of all their planes as well, and their entire fleet is Dash products. This would be sad as Wideroe has been around for decades and has only operated Dehavilland and Bombardier products for the last 60 years, starting with the Beaver, Otter, then moving to Twin Otters, Dash-7 and and Dash-8 today.

sanjet · Post by **sanjet** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:23 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071028/turbopro ... .html?.v=4

Airline Pulls Turboprops From Fleet

Scandinavian Airlines said Sunday it will pull Bombardier Q400 turboprops from its fleet after a series of crash landings caused by landing gear malfunctions.

...

Great for anyone looking for used Q400's on the market, just make sure u dont have junior SAS AME's working on it.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:36 am

Bombardier Statement Regarding the SAS Decision on its Q400 Aircraft Fleet

By: Marketwire .
Oct. 28, 2007 05:56 PM

TORONTO, ONTARIO -- (MARKET WIRE) -- 10/28/07 -- Bombardier is disappointed with the SAS decision to permanently discontinue flight operations with the Bombardier Q400 aircraft given that the landing incident is still under investigation by Danish authorities.

While SAS chose to ground its Q400 turboprop fleet following the incident on October 27, 2007, Bombardier's assessment of this situation, in consultation with Transport Canada, did not identify a systemic landing gear issue. Based on this we advised all Q400 aircraft operators that they should continue with normal Q400 aircraft flight operations. Further, Bombardier and the landing gear manufacturer, Goodrich, have completed a full review of the Q400 turboprop landing gear system and results have confirmed its safe design and operational integrity.

Bombardier stands behind the Q400 aircraft. Since entering revenue service in February 2000, the Q400 turboprop has proven itself to be a safe and reliable aircraft with over 150 Q400 aircraft in operation among 22 operators around the world. To date, the fleet of Q400 aircraft has logged over one million flying hours and 1.2 million take-off and landing cycles.

About Bombardier

A world-leading manufacturer of innovative transportation solutions, from regional aircraft and business jets to rail transportation equipment, systems and services, Bombardier Inc. is a global corporation headquartered in Canada. Its revenues for the fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2007, were $14.8 billion US, and its shares are traded on the Toronto Stock Exchange (BBD). Bombardier is listed as an index component to the Dow Jones Sustainability World and North America indexes. News and information are available at http://www.bombardier.com.

http://www.sys-con.com/read/450745.htm

station60 · Post by **station60** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:11 pm

They should have gone with the ATR72-500 in the first place, although a lesser-aircraft wrt performance, it's a much more proven aircraft.

I wonder what Porter and HydroQuebec will do now?

sanjet · Post by **sanjet** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:16 pm

station60 wrote: I wonder what Porter and HydroQuebec will do now?

Hydro had some teething problems in the early stages but after their Q400 was replaced, they are quite happy with it along with porter. My guess is that they will proceed as filed.

bungyno · Post by **bungyno** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:41 pm

sanjet wrote:Why is only SAS having these problems with the main gears?

Glad to hear everyone's ok though.

Because SAS have the 1. generation of the Q400 encumbered with starting disease.

rd1331 · Post by **rd1331** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:58 pm

Well from a good source i have been told that the problems at SAS the first two where due to a substance on the gear that SAS was using. A corrosive non aviation substance. Let me say again NON AVIATION grade substance that SAS machanic's where using.

Lets just say my source has something to do with the people doing investigations.

bungyno · Post by **bungyno** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:36 pm

There is some consideration about the incident and why :

* SAS Group and WIDERØE (owned by SAS) have the 1. generation of the Q400 encumbered with previous manufacture problems.

* SAS/WIDERØE is one of the most notable purchaser of the flights with a fleet of 31 of Dash 8/Q400 and its natural this airlines get this problems first.

Alex YCV · Post by **Alex YCV** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:54 pm

bungyno wrote:There is some consideration about the incident and why :

* SAS Group and WIDERØE (owned by SAS) have the 1. generation of the Q400 encumbered with previous manufacture problems.

* SAS/WIDERØE is one of the most notable purchaser of the flights with a fleet of 31 of Dash 8/Q400 and its natural this airlines get this problems first.

Well, sort of. Law of averages says that with 150 aircraft in service, that SAS would only see 1 in 5 of the problems (if there was a problem) or 1 in 5 of thr random occurances. That SAS is seeing significant amounts of veyr similar issues over a relative short period of time is beyond standard stats.

It may be that they are doing shorter trips and more cycles, example, and that would expose a weakness or wear issue earlier than others. It may also be that their methods of maintain these aircraft are missing something or inadvertantly making an error in how they are doing things.

With the numbers like they are, my feelings lean towards something in the way these craft have been maintained or operated, but that is pure speculation.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:43 pm

Election time in Denmark. Politicians asking E.U to ban the Q400 from Europe.

I will try & find the article online.

All I have to say is good luck!

privateer · Post by **privateer** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:46 am

I just saw the news, apparently there is over 100 back ordered dash8's in the books. I highly disagree that this will hurt the Q400 in the long term and mostly likely make SAS look like a bunch of losers who couldn't properly perform maintenance on their airplanes.

Most of the landing gears on SAS Q400 were over 10,000 cycles and I'm sure having rookie 200hr F/O's landing the planes doesn’t help. Just a crazy system over there. Did anybody see that program on discovery about the A380 flight test program? The day before the first flight they couldn't even get the landing gear to deploy properly. Ever wonder why it stayed down for the whole first flight. But not to get off topic, I believe the Q400 is a great aircraft and to have 3 accidents in row by one airline shows not just a problem with the manufacture but possibly the airline.

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:48 am

Is the problem with Bombardier or Dowty landing gear? Strange that this problem continues.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:22 am

Boss Hawg wrote:
bcflyer wrote:
Boss Hawg wrote:Wow great job on the landing and getting the passengers outta there. Compare with the video from the incident in September, these guys did a way better job IMO.
Big difference in the two incidents. The one in September the gear collapsed without warning. In this latest event the crew knew well in advance what was going to happen. You really can't compare the way the crews handled each one.
Really? They had fire trucks and media standing by when they landed. The gear was down but they must have known there was some kind of problem. Maybe we're thinking of different incidents, weren't there 2 in Sept?

edit: This is the september one I'm referring to.
http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/article.php/id- ... ml?forside

According to SAS, flight SK1209 was enroute from Copenhagen to Aalborg with 69 passengers and a crew of four when a problem with the aircraft's main landing gear was identified. The pilots prepared for a controlled emergency landing and, after landing, the right main gear collapsed

My apologies, we may be thinking of different incidents. I was thinking of a gear collapse but wasn't aware the crew knew in advance that they had a gear issue.

Flying Nutcracker · Post by **Flying Nutcracker** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:54 am

You know... after having read this thread... I feel like going back to watching the news on TV and actually get some news with less speculation...

FN

SAS Q400 gear collapse AGAIN (Oct 27)

About SAS and WIDERØE fleet of Dash 8/Q400

Re: About SAS and WIDERØE fleet of Dash 8/Q400