latest job ad

Jet Dog · Post by **Jet Dog** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:01 pm

i see another job ad, looking for guys to buy their ppc

that'll cost what 15-20grand...wtf are wrong with operators now a days! if they're that cheap they're not gonna be in aviation long, oh how I loath these pimps!

Blueskies · Post by **Blueskies** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:18 am

Anyone consider that maybe North America's view of how you should get into aviation is changing. I'm not saying that I agree/disagree with the whole thing (that's another topic and another argument!).

But how is it that operators in Europe and the Caribbean, Asia and Africa are able to put new drivers into the right seat of a larger aircraft and get them to sit there (on a bond mind you!) for 2-3 years before they can move up or out. Yet their cost of training is much higher than ours and their hiring pool is smaller than ours. Ever consider the fact that because flight training is so much cheaper here and there are many more smaller operators that are just trying to get by with paying aircrews $50 per day to do everything but flying, North American aviation has created it's own problems. Why is it that in Germany, a student trains on a Cheyenne after getting a multi-IFR and then proceeds directly onto Lufthansa. Granted, they don't all end up at Lufthansa but they look at the Jetstream drivers as they guys who weren't the cream of the crop. So they have to transition from a Jetstream into a Dash 8 before they become a jet jockey.

The point here is that they don't spend time flying 172s and Senecas trying to qualify for a job. You've done your training, spent your money and now it's time to start a career. NOT roll the dice for a chance at winning a lottery ticket that may put you into a hiring pool so that someday you might be one of the lucky 'chosen'.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm pretty pissed off because I was offered a job 3 weeks ago and I accepted it, gave in my notice at my last place and now the position has been delayed indefinitely. So I'm not flying, I'm not making a paycheque yet......I 'have a job'......???????????

I LOVE AVIATION

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:23 am

I like how it says "low time commercial pilots willing to pay for their own PPC."

I bet no high time pilot would even consider paying for their PPC on a B1900. This company obviously knows that low time pilots can get desperate, and they are simply trying to take advantage of them. They also know that if a 300 hour pilot goes right seat into a B1900, they will not need to pay upgrade training for them for a very long time.

This is sad, but as everyone knows, it will continue to occur, especially during low hiring times.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:39 am

that totally blows.....especially because it is not the norm. Very few places would ever ask a new employee, no matter what amount of time to pay for a 1900 PPC. CMA has been known to hire low timers for right seat, and while there may be a bond, there is no requirement to pay for your PPC! THis is total BS because this is only the start. once other operators see that someone is making their new hires pay for PPC's, they will take a look at that option as well. YOu just wait, Goergian, CMA, and others will look at this option if this new company does well!

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:48 am

I'm surprised that AVCANADA posted that job, especially with having such a pledge to the CAAP. When you provide an outlet for a company to take advantage of people, that doesn't support your cause. I understand AVCANADA is about freedom of speech, but you're going to have to have to be careful if you want to maintain the legitamacy of a group like the CAAP.

paul972 · Post by **paul972** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:51 am

You know what's funny?

A few years back, lots of companies were paying lots of money for training of computer programmers. It was very easy to find a job where they were going to give you all the courses required to make you almost an expert in that platform (some of those certifications cost lots of money).

And guess what??? people start leaving the companies that paid the training for other ones that were paying them more. After a while.... companies started asking employees to sign a contract before they were sent to the training courses.

As of today, I am not aware of ANY company that will offer you training in that particular platform. Actually, if you want to find a job... most likely you will have to pay the training yourself and they go and try to find a job.... those times where software companies making lots of money were paying for training are gone...

Now... I look at the "pay for your PPC issue" and I think... mmmm..... in a few years from now... that will be normal....

I'm not saying that I agree with paying for your PPC... I'm just saying that it happens in other fields too, and based on my limited experience, it is due to the fact that companies look for ways of save money, prevent people from getting training and leave a month after they took the training, demand and supply, etc.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:06 pm

There are far more different aircraft that you can get a PPC on than there are programming platforms you can get certified in. If I were to get a PPC in a Navajo, this limits me to only a limited number of operators in Canada. If buying a PPC is really where things are unfortunately going, the operators should get together and decide on which aircraft they have to limit their fleet to.

groundtoflightdeck · Post by **groundtoflightdeck** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:20 pm

How do people feel about a situation where company A provides your PPC and pays industry standard say; let's say $2000/ mo. Company B required you pay for training but the salary is $3000/mo. It is like an investment in training because you would get the money you put into the PPC in 3-6 mo in salary and after they are paying better. At this point its almost like a training bond. Strictly hypothetical, fairly far fetched situation.

Cheers

Always Moving · Post by **Always Moving** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:27 pm

When one first approach to this DILEMA seems simpler that it is.

A person does not have the knowledge to do something, but an employer said if you get that knowledge I will hire you so the person acquired the knowledge. At first sight it does not appeared too bad, but then…wait I do have the knowledge is just not in that exact plane…..

From the company side is either The Company pay for that person to get the knowledge or he come aboard with it, the choice is clear.

Now the way I see it….. I am not required to have every type in the world to fly, just my ATPL, in order to fly for a company, THE COMPANY has to obey by several CAR’s one of them it says that the pilot has to have a PPC, well that is the company problem. If not, tomorrow TC said: ALL companies need IFR approved GPS and they might ask me too to buy one for the company. Like I said, that is my opinion and I can see both sides of the coin

I have never "bought" a PPC, but under certain circumstances, I thing, I might under the right circumstances or better yet said under the WRONG circumstances.

BLUESKIES! that happens in Europe because there is almost NO GA(general Aviation) and BELIVE ME They have no idea of how REALLY a plane is flown, since they are train for flying airliners(A ton of theory very little flying)
Hey Blue in life ESPECIALLY in aviation the law of the monkey applies….what? You never heard of it? Well, you just did the monkeys last resource “The Leap” usually you do not let go of a branch till the next one is firmly secure.

Paul 972 you are considering apples and cars. The knowledge of a course does not expire, PPC do. I do not think in your life time you will see Boeing, Piper or a new and improve new company giving away type rating so the pilots learn on them so the companies buy their planes, “cuz they’re use to them”

The problem is BIG since there is more people involved that one might think. It is not a TC, manufacturers, pilots and operators. The insurance (and their lawyers) are at the end the ones that run the COMPANY!

I do not think I scratch the whole problem, but there are my views….

I can not believe that I have 500h pic in C-401 but I need a ppc in a Navajo hence I am not flying, since I did not buy one.

planett · Post by **planett** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:53 pm

On a different note, If avcanada is about freedom of speech, as desksgo said, why did the Norcanair gear collapse thread get removed so soon a week or two ago?

Regarding pay for training vs. compensation, anecdotal evidence suggests that some US and European LCC's required Type Ratings as a condition of hire and had pay for training programs for those applicants without the Rating. The flipside was the relatively high compensation, advancement, profit sharing etc. What I see in Canada now is pay for training being used to keep crews on a low pay scale for one, two, or three years before they have their money back or the security to demand more. This is a double whammy. Crews are taking more of the risk and less of the reward, possibly hoping the reward will come at the 'next job', and we all know where that leads.

paul972 · Post by **paul972** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:55 pm

Always Moving wrote:Paul 972 you are considering apples and cars. The knowledge of a course does not expire, PPC do.

Well, certifications do expire... but I see your point...

Always Moving wrote:I do not think in your life time you will see Boeing, Piper or a new and improve new company giving away type rating so the pilots learn on them so the companies buy their planes, “cuz they’re use to them”

Again, I see your point... I guess what I was trying to say is that when there are lots of professionals that meet your criteria, you raise the bar... and keep raising it until your costs are lower or you get really good people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I agree with that approach... I'm just saying that I've seen that in many industries... not only in aviation....

tusky · Post by **tusky** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:29 pm

just wondering if anyone knows why they removed the job add. I found it kind of suspect that a company would have a hotmail account.

jimdandy · Post by **jimdandy** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:32 pm

I do not agree on buying your PPC.

I do however agree on signing training bonds to a certian degree. If I quit, fine, I should have to pay for the training I did. If I get laid off, the company goes bust, they loose an A/C, a sked, i get hurt on the job and have to take time off, they are making me break regs and flying unsafe, or for whatever reason, other than leaving on my own for another job, I don't feel that I should have to pay.
Companys need qualified pilots.

To take out another loan, on top of the loans taken to this point, is CRAZY!

I guess u would be in the same debt if u quit, but u wouldn't want to incur unneeded debt or quit. Also if u train and jump, how does that look to the next 5 employeers? Can you use that comapny for a reference? Not likely! What about all the old employees that know you from that company u bailed on? In an industry based on references, it doesen't seem wise to burn bridges. At any point. violent flame I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, that u want to be knowen as the guy who uses companys for training and then jumps ship. Also if your buddy helps you get on there, how does that look on him? Will he help you again in the future? fart
Bottom line: No buying PPC's. bootyshake Training bonds yes.

Maybe like other posters have mentioned, we may not have a choice in the future, if we don't take a stand now. bang head
My 2cents.
Wave

Post by **avcanada** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:29 pm

K wrote:just wondering if anyone knows why they removed the job add. I found it kind of suspect that a company would have a hotmail account.

I requested a phone and fax number from the company before I place the job ad due to the hotmail email address. I was emailed back a fax number. I called the fax number several times only to recieve a busy signal. I did several internet searches and was unable to turn up any info on this company. I also attempted several searches on TC database and was unable to find any info.

So unless someone can help me confirm that this company really exists I have no intention of reposting the job ad.

So to answer your question I removed the job ad due to a lack of contact info that I could verify.

Perhaps this company is a startup I am not sure.

Nate989 · Post by **Nate989** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:31 pm

Heres the situation, you have 250hours you pay say for a Be1900 rating, what are the chances you will end up getting job with no commercial expeirence??

oldebloke · Post by **oldebloke** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:18 pm

Years ago British Airways(BOAC/BEA)went around the schools and employed students as cadet pilots..They trained them up on Pipers/Cessnas,and they ended up with Comm licences,multi/Ifr.They went to work as fo's on DC3's and Viscounts.They they quit due to boredom etc.SO the big airlines Bonded them to get their dur productivety.This was done ,as mentioned above,due to the lack of pilots-ON THE STREET..The cost of learning was too high!! THis practice is carried on today by JAL/LUFT/and other european companies..IN 1970 JAL people asked Air Canada where they acquired their pilots?A/C said we advertise on friday and open the front door on monday for the crowd..
Up until now Canadian Pilots could afford to do their own training(G/A 172's 1000hrs)..Big Airlines cover the cost of training(PPC's)Charter Co's,in view of the fact that pilots will move on require Bonds(like the early Big Co's)to get their pound of productivety.Normally 3 years-not bad for $30k training..As opposed to this some questionable Co's require the candidate to PAY his way for the training with the understanding of repayement(Jetsgo-2 years)...
If you don't want to PAY for your PPC,what's your argument with Bonds?? :lol:

Pindunder Jeep · Post by **Pindunder Jeep** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:41 pm

Paying for a PPC is simply taking food off another pilots table and helping to ensure your Walmart salary for years to come. Many companies will argue that it is too expensive to train guys just so they can leave. Fair enough. Write up a legal training bond.

Getting you to pay is just cheap and they do it because as a group, we let them. Many large engineering companies "invest" in their employees skills and require a bond to remain with the organization for a period of time. They do NOT ask their people to get a $35K loan and then promise to make the payments for them over a period of time. Thats great until they go belly up and you are left with a $35k loan to pay off at the unemployment line! If they are that short of cash in the first place.....good chance they won't be around long!

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:29 am

I have no problem with the issue of signing a bond (don´t like it either, but under the right conditions . . . ). However I am against the concept of raising your own money and paying for a rating on which there is no promise of a payback (independent of the wages earned and "valuable experience") as a part of the job offer.

latest job ad

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latest job ad

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