No Sea King successors until 2010

[teacher]

No Sea King successors until 2010
Canada's faltering helicopters may not last until the Cyclones land, military expert warns

Richard Foot
The Ottawa Citizen

Thursday, January 10, 2008

CREDIT: Reuters, Sikorsky Photo
The federal government is considering "all possible options with respect to Sikorsky's default on the timely delivery of the maritime helicopters," according to a spokesman from the office of Public Works Minister Michael Fortier.

The long-awaited arrival of new military helicopters to replace Canada's worn-out Sea King fleet has been delayed by up to three years, CanWest News Service has learned.

The obsolete, 1960s-era Sea Kings were due to be phased out starting this year with the arrival of new CH 148 Cyclone helicopters, designed to be flown off the decks of the navy's warships.

The first of 28 Cyclones. which were ordered in 2004 from Sikorsky International in Connecticut, at a cost of $1.8 billion, was scheduled to arrive at the Shearwater air base near Halifax in November this year, with additional aircraft coming one per month thereafter.

But military staff at Shearwater have been told that the first new Cyclone won't arrive until 2010 or 2011 -- two to three years later than promised.

The team of pilots, mechanics and technicians assembled to do trials on the first new helicopter has also been put on hold because of the delay.

That means the military will have to keep the old Sea Kings flying -- already a difficult task -- another two or three years until the Cyclones are delivered and made operational.

"Trying to maintain Sea King operations until the arrival of the Cyclone is already a very trying exercise," says Lee Myrhaugen, a retired air force colonel, Sea King pilot, and former deputy commander of the military's maritime air group.

"Parts are being taken from other aircraft, we're down in fleet numbers, down in flying hours, down in serviceability. All of this is putting a strain on operations."

Col. Myrhaugen, one of a number of retired officers who have campaigned hard to have the Sea Kings replaced, says negotiations are currently under way between the federal government and Sikorsky, the prime contractor, to rewrite portions of the Cyclone procurement contract.

He says new engineering requirements -- likely a result of technology advances in certain aircraft components, which weren't foreseen in 2004 -- mean the original contract must now be reworked.

"Manufacturers may well have new equipment or upgrades available. And as a result of it, they've come to a situation where the original contract is undeliverable," Col. Myrhaugen says. "What's being negotiated between Sikorsky and the Crown is how we get the end product in view of that situation.

"This is not abnormal," he says, "but when contracts change, it has an impact on arrival time and cost, and it's almost like starting over in some respects."

The original 2004 contract included penalties against the manufacturer in the event of delivery delays.

Col. Myrhaugen says he isn't aware of any penalties being levied yet, and no announcement has been made about any delays. Sikorsky's website still says the first Cyclone is due for delivery in November.

Officials at Sikorsky and the Department of Defence did not answer requests for interviews on the matter.

But Jacques Gagnon, spokes-man from the office of Public Works Minister Michael Fortier, said the government was "considering all possible options with respect to Sikorsky's default on the timely delivery of the maritime helicopters."

Col. Myrhaugen says Sikorsky may still find a way to deliver the aircraft on time, but warns that if a delay occurs, "the likelihood of making the Sea Kings survive is extremely limited."

The Sea King's primary job is flying off Canada's frigates and destroyers.

It is a valuable tool for surveillance, search and rescue, and transport .

But some Canadian warships no longer sail on overseas missions with helicopters -- or with their full detachment of helicopters -- because there aren't enough reliable Sea Kings available.

Those aircraft that do go to sea must be used sparingly, because the old airframes (an aircraft's structure) and engines now require roughly 30 hours of maintenance for every hour they spend in the air.

Col. Myrhaugen says helicopter crews are only getting a fraction of the flying hours they were once required to have to maintain proficiency. "They've cut back to the absolute essentials," he says.

Online: Delivery Delay

Global National's Ross Lord reports that Canada's aging Sea King fleet of helicopters is at least three years away.

To view a video report go to Today's Videos at ottawacitizen.com

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008

http://www.canada.com/components/print. ... ef3da8cc9d

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1010111.html

[WJflyer]

This is unusual. From my sources, the first airframe for us, 148801, was delivered to West Palm Beach from Keystone Helicopters last August for final assembly, and was slated to do test flights off HMCS Montreal this spring and summer. Something is up.

[GilletteNorth]

Boneheaded Liberal political move just to get re-elected by promising the cancellation of the SHRP due to 'extreme cost' was what caused this delay in the first place. Watch, if this rumor is true and next election Liberals get back in power the 'delay' will be much longer than 2-3 years. Outright cancellation again is a possibility for them. How many more CF pilot's lives are worth your re-election Libs? Chretien you suck.

[AirCon]

wow.....another 2 to 3 years before the "Sea Kows" are put to pasture......are they going to last that long?

A

[2R]

And this is news ???

And yet people still volunteer to put on the uniform .

What was it our grandfathers said "Never be first, Never be last and Never volunteer for anything !!!! "

[WJflyer]

Digging into what's going on, it appears that the Cyclone order is being affected by the same problem that is facing the US Marine's VH-71 order: Feature creep. We're stuffing more and more into the airframe, and asking for so many changes to the design that it is causing a delay.

[Justwannafly]

Digging into what's going on, it appears that the Cyclone order is being affected by the same problem that is facing the US Marine's VH-71 order: Feature creep. We're stuffing more and more into the airframe, and asking for so many changes to the design that it is causing a delay.

well we can't put as much in those helicopters as we would have been able to if we had stuck with our EH101s

[WJflyer]

Digging into what's going on, it appears that the Cyclone order is being affected by the same problem that is facing the US Marine's VH-71 order: Feature creep. We're stuffing more and more into the airframe, and asking for so many changes to the design that it is causing a delay.

well we can't put as much in those helicopters as we would have been able to if we had stuck with our EH101s

Which are turning out to be a bunch of lemons, with absolutely pathetic technical support from the manufacturer. AWIL has our hands tied because they are so god damn slow in getting back to us when we ask for parts or when something usual crops up. They literally take MONTHS just to respond to a request to come and take a look at something.

From my understanding, the situation is currently as follows:
148801 is nearing or at completion, in terms of the airframe and all flight critical systems. She should be set to fly this year. So technically, Sikorsky could deliver the airframe to us on time, according to the contract. However, apparantly, there are some changes being demanded by us to the mission systems and sensors, which is dragging things out. I am not sure if we are demanding Canadianization of the mission systems or we are tacking on new capabilities that we didn't ask for when we signed the contract back in 2004.

[Airflow]

And this is news ???

And yet people still volunteer to put on the uniform .

What was it our grandfathers said "Never be first, Never be last and Never volunteer for anything !!!! "

I certainly don't mean to hijack this thread, but 2R this comment isn't appropriate.

The men and women choose to "volunteer" for their own reasons; maybe family tradition, Canadian pride, an education, benifits, whatever. Within their trades (and whatever element), they do their best with what they have. Yeh, our fleets are aging (air, army & navy) , some a/c types are even ops restricted. But my hats off to them for putting their lives on the line everyday, trusting these machines and each other with their lives to get the job done.

At the end of the day, it's a life style, and if you served, you'd understand. Wearing a uniform is a very unique opportunity. Yeah, it comes with it's ups and downs, from mess dinners to military funerals. But that's part of the job, part of the life style, and I've yet to come across it on civi street (not to say it's not there).

Someone once said, "What doesn't kill us, only makes us stronger" (and no, it wasn't my grandfather). I will say that the kind of friends you make in the military last a lifetime, all due to a days work.

To those currently serving, keep up the good work.

[Justwannafly]

Digging into what's going on, it appears that the Cyclone order is being affected by the same problem that is facing the US Marine's VH-71 order: Feature creep. We're stuffing more and more into the airframe, and asking for so many changes to the design that it is causing a delay.

well we can't put as much in those helicopters as we would have been able to if we had stuck with our EH101s

Which are turning out to be a bunch of lemons, with absolutely pathetic technical support from the manufacturer. AWIL has our hands tied because they are so god damn slow in getting back to us when we ask for parts or when something usual crops up. They literally take MONTHS just to respond to a request to come and take a look at something.

From my understanding, the situation is currently as follows:
148801 is nearing or at completion, in terms of the airframe and all flight critical systems. She should be set to fly this year. So technically, Sikorsky could deliver the airframe to us on time, according to the contract. However, apparantly, there are some changes being demanded by us to the mission systems and sensors, which is dragging things out. I am not sure if we are demanding Canadianization of the mission systems or we are tacking on new capabilities that we didn't ask for when we signed the contract back in 2004.

From what I understand its adding new capabilities that we didnt' ask for back in 2004 becuase they were either not needed at the time and or were not technicaly avaliable at the time

[WJflyer]

From what I understand its adding new capabilities that we didnt' ask for back in 2004 becuase they were either not needed at the time and or were not technicaly avaliable at the time

Hence, feature creep.

What would make more sense right now is a phased purchasing system. The order would be split into four main groups, with the first batch the basic airframe and avionics to fly the helicopter to serve as the initial Sea King replacement. The second phase will integrate a baseline sensor package containing the main sensors (EO turret, surface search radar, dipping sonar). The third phase will integrate the rest of the sensor package. The final phase will be integration of weapons and countermeasure systems. Aircraft from the previous phase will be upgraded to the next phase as the testing continues. This sort of purchasing system makes sense when you are integrating a lot of untested equipment into a airframe, such as the case with the initial deployment of the C-130J Hercules in USAF and RAF. It will allow for quicker delivery, and a less troublesome introduction into service as it prolongs testing and development, which will result in less bugs when in service. It is all about risk management, unfortunately.

[rotorfloat]

WJflyer, you appear to be in the 'know'...

A poster on another forum commented about the purchase price agreement; allowing civil customers to fall in line ahead of the CF orders. Any substance to this?

[Spokes]

How many more CF pilot's lives are worth your re-election Libs? Chretien you suck.

Not to mention the other half of the crew, Tacco and sensor operator/hoist operator/gunner. These guys and girls make up the other half of the Sea King Crew.

[WJflyer]

WJflyer, you appear to be in the 'know'...

A poster on another forum commented about the purchase price agreement; allowing civil customers to fall in line ahead of the CF orders. Any substance to this?

I won't be surprised, as the H-92 is completely different from the civil S-92 helicopter, for example, the H-92 is supposed to have a Fly By Wire flight control system while the S-92 is a mechanical system. They may look identical, but they are totally separate aircraft designs. We are the guinea pigs for the introduction of the FBW system.

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

Local paper here reported 30 maintenance hours per flight hour, to which I and everyone I know that twists wrenches simply states bullshit. I realize the RCAF breaks maintenance down into specializations unlike the civvie world, but honestly, 30:1?!?! Either the RCAF employs some seriously under-experienced techs, or it is media sensationalism. I have worked on some pretty tired, old obsolete machines and never seen a ratio worse than 4 hours mtce per flight hour, WTF is going on in the RCAF?

[WJflyer]

Local paper here reported 30 maintenance hours per flight hour, to which I and everyone I know that twists wrenches simply states bullshit. I realize the RCAF breaks maintenance down into specializations unlike the civvie world, but honestly, 30:1?!?! Either the RCAF employs some seriously under-experienced techs, or it is media sensationalism. I have worked on some pretty tired, old obsolete machines and never seen a ratio worse than 4 hours mtce per flight hour, WTF is going on in the RCAF?

30 man hours per flight hour for maintenance is what the figure really is. Just the media mis-reporting things again...

[2R]

The recruiters must be able to charm the panties off a nun !!!
You'd be a better man than Gunga din to keep one of those things in the air in a real fighting war against a respectable enemy.Just flying them around the back of the boat is an exercise in dodging death from old age

[teacher]

Is this what someone on here was talking about, the CF adding requirements? More powerful engines since more hardware is being placed aboard?

and it continues...........

Cost overruns endanger copter deal
Ottawa warns it could kill contract after U.S.-based Sikorsky requests up to $500-million more in its bid to replace aging Sea Kings
DANIEL LEBLANC and STEVEN CHASE AND BRIAN LAGHI

April 30, 2008

OTTAWA -- Federal officials are threatening to cancel a $5-billion contract with Sikorsky Inc. because the U.S.-based helicopter maker is asking for up to $500-million in extra funds to replace Canada's 40-year-old Sea Kings.

Senior sources said the relationship between Ottawa and Sikorsky took a turn for the worse after the firm acknowledged this year that it was running late in its plans to provide 28 high-tech Cyclone helicopters to the Canadian Forces.

The government's controversial efforts to replace the Sea Kings, which go back to the early 1990s, are now complicated by Sikorsky's request for more funds to deliver replacement helicopters.

Sikorsky officials refused to comment on the current negotiations, but senior federal officials said the company has requested between $250-million and $500-million in new funding.

Sources said there is talk in government that the Cyclones need a "more powerful engine" to meet Canada's requirements, and that delivery could be delayed by nearly two years even with additional money. High-ranking sources said the contract dispute is causing concerns at the highest levels of the government, and that cancellation of the contract is a possibility. If new funding were to be offered, the government would be seeking ironclad guarantees that Sikorsky would deliver the aircraft at the new agreed-upon time.

"All of the options are on the table," a federal official said.

"We can cancel or come to a compromise."

The Conservative government of Brian Mulroney had ordered new helicopters to replace the Sea Kings in 1992, but former Liberal prime minister Jean Chrétien cancelled the purchase as soon as he came to power the following year.

Conservative officials are still furious at the Liberal decision, arguing that the deal would have already allowed the Canadian Forces to replace the Sea Kings with Cormorant helicopters.

Sikorsky won a competition in 2004 to provide 28 helicopters to replace the fleet of Sea Kings. At contract signing, Sikorsky agreed to deliver the first helicopter in January of next year.

The maximum penalty on the contract for late delivery is $36-million.

Sikorsky president Jeffrey Pino was in Ottawa recently to discuss the delays in the production of the Cyclones with government officials. A spokesman for Sikorsky, however, refused to elaborate on the ongoing negotiations.

"We hope to have an agreement within the next several weeks, by the end of May," company spokesman Paul Jackson said.

The government is now working to determine when it can take delivery of the first helicopter, and what it needs to do to get there.

"Once we have completed our review of the contractor's claimed reasons for delay, we will be in a position to determine Canada's next steps," said Lucie Brosseau, a spokeswoman for Public Works Canada.

"Canada is keeping all of its contractual and legal options open to minimize delay in procuring new maritime helicopters," she said.

A defence source said that the government is in discussions with Sikorsky to determine "what capabilities could be delivered and at what point."

Another government official said there are concerns within the government regarding the aircraft that will be delivered by Sikorsky.

The issue, according to the source, is "a perception that Sikorsky cannot deliver a helicopter that is compliant to what was ordered."

However, sources in the defence industry said a cancellation of the contract would not help the Canadian Forces meet their original need, which is to replace the Sea King helicopters as soon as possible.

"There is no plan for what they could do after," an industry specialist said.

"Whether they like it or not, [the government and Sikorsky] are married."

General Rick Hillier, the Chief of the Defence Staff, has expressed frustration at the delay in the delivery of the helicopters.

"We just need to get an aircraft, we need to get it quickly, and we'd like to have it in service as soon as we possibly can," he said earlier this year.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... tory/Front

[WJflyer]

Is this what someone on here was talking about, the CF adding requirements? More powerful engines since more hardware is being placed aboard?

and it continues...........

Essentially. In short, what is happening is three fold; the manufacturer is experiencing delays in testing and design, secondly, the customer doesn't know what they want, and finally, the piece of equipment happens to be unique to Canada.

If this is getting in the news, it means that negotiations between Sikorsky and Public Works have gone very sour and the tactics of negotiation used have totally changed. This is going to get messy folks... and we better look at alternatives that are available for quick delivery as a interim aircraft or as a full blown replacement...

[teacher]

Ouch, will this saga ever end!!!