global report on pilot flight duty times

[eastguy]

hi guys and gals

first time calller long time listener

just watched globals report on pilots flying tired....duty day at 14 hours and can be extended to 17...as a night freight guy i thinks its crazy for us to be working 14 hours a day or night...the news program said TC is reviewing this policy.....its time for us to put heat on transport...PLEASE EVERYONE WRITE TC AND REQUEST MAXIMIMUM 12 HOUR DUTY DAYS.....as we all know we are flying tired.....

thanks folks,

eastguy

[Krashman]

I don't really have a problem with 14hr duty days...

When its a wait and return thats what the hotel room is for.... sleep.

(there's one perticular person that draws to mind... wasting the day away with free Playboy channel... you know who you are!)

[180]

How about a restricted duty day for AME's? Pilots are restricted to a 14 hour day but you can have AME's fixing your plane while sleep walking. Now that's scary...

[Krashman]

How about a restricted duty day for AME's? Pilots are restricted to a 14 hour day but you can have AME's fixing your plane while sleep walking. Now that's scary...

Good point!

[PlaneDecent]

I don't find the days too bad when you have a place to lay your head. But the days are long.

['79K20driver]

When its a wait and return thats what the hotel room is for.... sleep.

Easier said than done, especially after a night shift. You'll get some sleep, but a good solid 8 hours during the day in a hotel is hard to come by. A 14 hour shift the following night gets pretty tough. You would be a fool to think guys aren't flying around tired. I'm with eastguy on this, especially for night freight operations where guys don't get intermediate breaks during the 14 hour period to catch a few z's (unless you count sleeping at the wheel!) I think 12 hours max, certainly at night, is a good start.

[2milefinal]

I don't really have a problem with 14hr duty days...

When its a wait and return thats what the hotel room is for.... sleep.

(there's one perticular person that draws to mind... wasting the day away with free Playboy channel... you know who you are!)

I know of a lot of pilots that are working 14 and 15 hour duty days (6-7 days at a time) and they are NOT sitting/sleeping in a hotel room.

['79K20driver]

I don't find the days too bad when you have a place to lay your head. But the days are long.

What do you mean? Are we not talking about 14 hours of work? When do you get to "lay your head" during 14 hours of work. We are talking about continuous work over a 14 hour day or night, not work shifts that are broken up into rest periods.

[Rockie]

"the news program said TC is reviewing this policy"


Transport Canada has been "reviewing" this policy for decades. Over the years worldwide there have been over 150 individual fatigue studies, and they all say exactly the same thing which any brain dead simpleton already knows so I won't insult anyones intelligence by repeating it here. There have also been several crashes in which fatigue was cited as a contributing cause or at least suspected. "Studies" and "reviews" are a tool used by Transport Canada to appear as if they are doing something until attention is diverted somewhere else, then they can do nothing about it until it becomes an issue again and they start more "studies" and "reviews". This has been studied and reviewed to death, but there will never be a change in the regulations in Canada until a horrific crash due to fatigue gets laid on the minister's doorstep and the public demands action.

This is all about lobbying and politics, not safety.

[small penguin]

Well, 6 hours of sleep and +2 hours of rest are legally required, even in the commercial industry correct?

Does TC really consider any time off duty as rest time? I dont know about you guys, but if I was in your position and had an hour commute home in YYZ, I certainly wouldnt consider it rest time. And that would make 14 hour days ... nearly impossible.

Dont they have all this 'controlled rest' stuff where you just sleep in the cockpit anyways?

[pelmet]

[quote]What do you mean? Are we not talking about 14 hours of work? When do you get to "lay your head" during 14 hours of work. We are talking about continuous work over a 14 hour day or night, not work shifts that are broken up into rest periods.

[/quote]

Some flying jobs allow rest opportunity during the work day, whether in flight or on the ground

[Flaps 1 Billion]

Those jobs are bag runs or charters. Most sked work has you on 14-15 hrs straight, multiple legs, multiple days, 15hrs with an augment. The airlines stand to loose money should the duty be changed, so guess what?

IT should change, like someone said, night cargo, or anyone on the back side of the clock, should have their hours chopped even further.

[Rockie]

The regulation:

720.23 Controlled Rest on the Flight Deck

The standards for compliance with this section require that the air operator's program is outlined in the company operations manual and contains the following elements:

(1) Training

Every flight crew member who participates in the controlled rest on the flight deck program shall have received training in the program as well as training in the general principles of fatigue and fatigue countermeasures.

(2) Pre-flight Activities

(a) The pilot-in-command shall determine if operational considerations allow or preclude the use of controlled rest on the flight deck based on guidelines developed by the air operator;

(b) the flight crew members' rest periods will be planned at a pre-flight briefing to enable them to anticipate and maximize the sleep opportunity and to manage their alertness. If required, this briefing can occur in flight; and

(c) the briefing shall include:

(i) the choice of rest sequence;

(ii) planned and unplanned wake-up criteria;

(iii) transfer of control procedures; and

(iv) co-ordination with the flight attendants.

(3) Pre-rest Period

Pre-rest period activities should take approximately 5 minutes and shall include:

(a) the transfer of duties;

(b) an operational briefing;

(c) completion of physiological needs;

(d) co-ordination with the flight attendants; and

(e) time for the flight crew member preparing to rest to become comfortable in the flight deck seat.
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(4) Rest Period
(a) Only one flight crew member at a time shall rest and the other flight crew member(s) shall remain alert. An alertness monitor may be considered as a back-up system;
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(b) The resting flight crew member's duties shall be completed by the non-resting flight crew member(s);
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(c) All flight crew members shall remain on the flight deck throughout the rest period;

(d) Each rest period shall be limited to a maximum of 45 minutes to avoid sleep inertia when the flight crew member is awakened;

(e) Rest periods shall occur only during the cruise phase of the flight and shall be completed at least 30 minutes before planned top of descent, workload permitting; and

(f) If required, more than one sleep opportunity may be taken by the flight crew members.

(5) Post-rest Period

(a) Unless required due to an abnormal or emergency situation, at least 15 minutes without any flight duties should be provided to the awakened flight crew member to allow sufficient time to become fully awake before resuming normal duties; and

(b) an operational briefing shall be given to the awakened flight crew member.


Pilots are exhausted and falling asleep so TC made it legal to do so with the above regulation and standard instead of actually doing something about the duty time regulations. So here's how it works in real life: (PF) "I can't keep my eyes open, are you up to taking it all by yourself while I get some shuteye?" (PNF) "I think so"

[trey kule]

For what its worth, UK system has different duty day limits dependent on when you start the day. Duty day starts between 21.00 and 0300 (If I remember correctly, but you get the idea), limit duty time to 8 hrs. Starts between 0700 and 1400 are 14 hrs...etc. Someone can google it and get the exact CAA regs if they are interested. The point here is that night flights are considered high stress/fatigue flights and the duty hours are limited accordingly.

[Liquid Charlie]

also the European rules reduce duty for number of legs flown -- and as pointed out they do consider what side of the clock you are working --

[Four1oh]

sounds like a great idea to me, so why isn't it an ICAO standard?

[Widow]

Perhaps this problem will be solved by SMS. The ICAO rep seemed to think so.

I will use an example. One of the companies we represent in Canada has a flight that departs Toronto fairly late at night and flies to St. John's, Newfoundland. It sits for two hours and then returns. The pilots were continually saying how tired they were on the return trip. The company's response originally was that it's within the Transport Canada regulations, it's within the 14-hour duty time, and they were absolutely right. However, under the SMS system in that company, they sat down with the company officials and identified that the two-hour wait at 4:30 in the morning probably wasn't the best thing. Now they've rearranged their flight schedule so they don't have that sit.

http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/comm ... nt-1903766

Of course, the ICAO rep did not seem to be aware of the disintegration of oversight by TCCA that seems to be intrinsic to the Bill.

[bobcaygeon]

Don't kid yourself Widow, SMS didn't solve this problem.
The company only changed the schedule because everyone was calling in sick for this flight and they couldn't get anybody else to operate it. It was the running joke that crew sked every night would call offering OT to try and staff this flight. Same time every night.

The break between flights was short enuf that the company wasn't contractually required to provide a hotel so the pilots & Fa's were sleeping in the aircraft. It just got to expensive for management (OT & cash penalties from AC for failure to operate the flights within the contract requirements)

They tried this stunt in YWG (arrive at 1 am depart 5 am) but the terminal closes completely at night and kicked the crew out on the street.


Is this some small outfit?? No it has the 2nd largest fleet in the country....

[Widow]

Don't kid yourself Widow, SMS didn't solve this problem.

S'okay bob, I haven't been fooled

My concern is that the ICAO and the aviation community is being fo(o/u)led.

[bobcaygeon]

Just replace every reference to ICAO with IATA and it will make more sense.