Safety improving at MFC?

[Donald]

CADORS Number: 2008A0337 Reporting Region: Atlantic

Occurrence InformationOccurrence Type: Incident Occurrence Date: 2008/03/19
Occurrence Time: 1907 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 0

Canadian Aerodrome ID: CYQM Aerodrome Name: Moncton/Greater Moncton Intl
Occurrence Location: Moncton/Greater Moncton Intl (CYQM) Province: New Brunswick
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Owner: THE MONCTON FLYING CLUB (MONCTON FLIGHT COLLEGE) Operator: THE MONCTON FLYING CLUB (763)
Operator Type: Commercial

Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: UNITED STATES
Make: CESSNA Model: 750
Year Built: Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: Engine Model:
Engine Type: Turbo fan Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Taxi Damage: No Damage
Owner: Operator:
Operator Type: Private

Detail InformationUser Name: MacQuarrie, Jack
Date: 2008/03/20
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: General Aviation
Narrative: An American registered Cessna 750 was backtracking on Runway 11 from Taxiway C. C-FJXE, Diamond DA 20 C1, was cleared for take-off on Runway 11 from Taxiway C. C-FJXE departed Runway 29 over N982QS that was still on the runway. Nil TSB.

[just curious]

Well, sounds like they're still teaching short-field takeoffs.

[hairdo]

I must admit that I laughed when I read this. How this pilot messed this one up I do not know. MFC does not allow intersection takeoffs on 29 from Bravo, let alone Charlie (those who know CYQM will know what I mean). And how the f*** do you miss a Citation that is LESS THAN 2500ft in front of you?!?!?!?!? Luckily the DA 20's can get off the ground in much less than 1000ft.

I can only imagine the reaction in the Citation...

[PopnChipper]

So, I am pretty much drunk right now, and unfamiliar with the airport, but there is something about this that is really bugging me. Despite taking off on the opposite end of the runway, the student was still cleared for takeoff on the same piece of ashphalt that the Citation was on. Does it strike anybody else as a little messed up that buddy was cleared for takeoff at all?

[lilfssister]

My understanding is he/she was cleared to take off opposite direction and N# was backtracking what SHOULD have been behind them?

[hairdo]

that's what was SUPPOSED to happen. It would have been a non-issue if they had done what they were supposed to. They say hindsight is 20/20, but WTF??? It doesn't make sense to me, and I cannot find out (in my head anyway) how it could possibly make sense to the pilot to take-off towards another aircraft??? And that pilot knows damn well that they aren't allowed to take-off 11 from Charlie (SOPs).

Oh, and PopnChipper, this is pretty much normal ops at CYQM. If the runway in use requires the big guys to backtrack, tower gets them to backtrack to position, and then gets us in our little featherweights to taxi into position at the intersection. This expedites traffic a bit as we (small guys) get off the runway while the big guys are backtracking behind us, or at least, that is how it's supposed to work.

[Gravy]

too bad you cant teach common sense in college ...

[Schooner.Cdn]

Isn't that the truth.

[hairdo]

*sigh* if only we could, if only...

[MaximumAmazing]

That's not the first time that has happened at Moncton. A few years ago when I was around one of the Diamonds was doing circuits on 29 and was told to land and wait for traffic departing off 24. Then tower told a 172 to go into position on 29. The 172 then got t/o clearance and took off over the diamond ahead of him. Obviously the tower is partly to blame but you have to be pretty thick to t/o over someone else.

Sometimes common sense isn't that common

[Benwa]

Here's the airport diagram...

CYQM.jpg (40.22 KiB) Viewed 2590 times

[Hedley]

Anyone spot a pattern here? From this morning's AVWEB:

FLORIDA FLIGHT SCHOOL, AFTER THREE FATAL CRASHES, SURRENDERS CERTIFICATE

Kemper Aviation, based at Palm Beach County Park airport near Lantana, Fla., has voluntarily given up its Part 141 flight school certificate, the Sun-Sentinel

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/ ... ?track=rss
reported on Wednesday. Three airplanes from the school have crashed

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/FA ... 386-1.html

in the last five months, killing eight people. The school suspended all of its flight training operations after the last crash, on March 13, in which a co-owner of the company died. The FAA is continuing its investigation into the school, which could still offer flight training under Part 61, but only for U.S. citizens. Most of Kemper's students are from India.

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/a ... tml#197466

[invertedattitude]

Jesus that's insane.

How about looking at that same airport diagram and an incident that happened last year:

Chinese Student got clearence onto runway 24, he throttled up on Delta Taxiway, crossed RW06-24, MADE THE TURN onto Taxiway Echo, and lifted off over the airports Main terminal...



Or how about a Tower controller I know who told me about how he was ready to watch a DA20 crash as after giving him take-off clearence on 29, he bounced along the runway several times, almost going off the runway on multiple occasions, finally settling down near Charlie.

He had forgot to latch the canopy on the aircraft, and was trying to fly and hold the canopy at the same time...

[invertedattitude]

That's not the first time that has happened at Moncton. A few years ago when I was around one of the Diamonds was doing circuits on 29 and was told to land and wait for traffic departing off 24. Then tower told a 172 to go into position on 29. The 172 then got t/o clearance and took off over the diamond ahead of him. Obviously the tower is partly to blame but you have to be pretty thick to t/o over someone else.

Sometimes common sense isn't that common

In a somewhat defense of an incident like that RW29 is graded you can't see the entire length, not sure where the cutoff is, I don't fly often enough out of YQM, but as I recall RW29 you can see maybe halfway down from the threshold.

[hairdo]

That's not the first time that has happened at Moncton. A few years ago when I was around one of the Diamonds was doing circuits on 29 and was told to land and wait for traffic departing off 24. Then tower told a 172 to go into position on 29. The 172 then got t/o clearance and took off over the diamond ahead of him. Obviously the tower is partly to blame but you have to be pretty thick to t/o over someone else.

Sometimes common sense isn't that common

In a somewhat defense of an incident like that RW29 is graded you can't see the entire length, not sure where the cutoff is, I don't fly often enough out of YQM, but as I recall RW29 you can see maybe halfway down from the threshold.

Yeah, for the 172 incident, it is somewhat understandable (emphasis on somewhat), but you still have to be pretty thick to not remember that there was an aircraft that just flew in front of you and hasn't been given further instruction from the tower. However, with the grade considered, the pilot of the 172 should have been able to see the DA-20, unless the DA-20 did a really shitty approach and landed halfway down the runway (they can stop in 300ft with no wind if you do it right). At the very least, the pilot of the 172 should have seen the DA-20 on the t/o roll. I'll have to take a look next time I go flying to see just how far down the runway you can see from the thld of 29.

With regards to the latest incident, the runway gradient was of no factor whatsoever. That pilot could not have possibly missed the Citation unless they were blind. If you can't see an aircraft that is less than 2500ft in front of you, you probably shouldn't be flying VFR.

[hairdo]

Jesus that's insane.

How about looking at that same airport diagram and an incident that happened last year:

Chinese Student got clearence onto runway 24, he throttled up on Delta Taxiway, crossed RW06-24, MADE THE TURN onto Taxiway Echo, and lifted off over the airports Main terminal...



Or how about a Tower controller I know who told me about how he was ready to watch a DA20 crash as after giving him take-off clearence on 29, he bounced along the runway several times, almost going off the runway on multiple occasions, finally settling down near Charlie.

He had forgot to latch the canopy on the aircraft, and was trying to fly and hold the canopy at the same time...

The first incident was partly the controllers fault in their use of phraseology, and the pilot's lack of sense. I believe the controller said something to the effect of "C-XXXX, to postion 24, cleared for takeoff from Delta." Obviously not exactly this, but something which lead to the pilot somehow believing that they had been cleared for takeoff on Delta. Amusingly, Delta would have been sufficiently long had he not been holding short (Delta used to be rwy 02/20). To this day, I am amazed by this. Imagine the pax in the terminal looking outside as a small plane comes buzzing toward them

[Stevo226]

Makes you wonder when this "shitty pilot effect" will trickle into the rest of Canada. I'm amazed that MFC is the only place where these international students continuisly wreak havoc. Has anybody heard any other stories similar to this from any other FTU's? In YXU ATC will routinely have Jazz or NW taxi to position at the button, and launch two or three lightweights from the intersection. It's efficient, it's safe, but only if everyone uses some common sense. I don't see anything wrong with this and it certainly isn't a safety issue. If a student is pulling something like taking off facing another aircraft, should the instructor have sent him out by himself in the first place?

[lilfssister]

2 in CYHU on the 24th? Word of mouth in the French Forum is they were ESL. (Perhaps ESL not the correct term since it was in Quebec, but you know what I mean)

[L1011]

I can only imagine the reaction in the Citation...

It's a bird! It's a plane....well, sorta...it's a sperm with wings!

Forget common sense, how about situational awareness??? The scariest part about all these mixups on which runway to use with these couple of MFC guys is that it's their home airport!!! Could you imagine the gongshow if they had parallel runways?

And I have no clue how you can miss a Citation from 2000 feet in the daytime...ugh.

[Tim]

I can only imagine the reaction in the Citation...

It's a bird! It's a plane....well, sorta...it's a sperm with wings!

Forget common sense, how about situational awareness??? The scariest part about all these mixups on which runway to use with these couple of MFC guys is that it's their home airport!!! Could you imagine the gongshow if they had parallel runways?

And I have no clue how you can miss a Citation from 2000 feet in the daytime...ugh.

Unfortunatly he didn't miss spotting it, he saw it and made a very bad decision. I am quick to jump to the defence of the chinese in terms of skill level, but coming from a communist country they have a different decision making process then us here in Canada. If someone tells them to do something who is in a position of authority, they do it. He just did what he thought he was being told to. He realized he made a mistake immediatly and returned for a full stop. And as for the moron that said 'should his instructor have sent him', should yours have sent you? You never caused a conflict with another aircraft or made a bad decision? I'm not sticking up for this kids action on that day, but for gods sake how can you judge his isntructor. Do you really think that this situation had arisen before the instructor just brushed it off and sent him anywanys? You can't judge the instructor for one mistake a student made. Nor can you even judge the student for that matter. Is one mistake, regardless of how colossal enough to make a judgement? Obviously not or none of us would have ever gotten our tickets.

One thing that may be a small factor, and which is a definate annoyance, is that all but one of the runways at YQM require a backtrack. And the one that doesn't requires the bigboys to cross the active runway on the other side of the hump in the rwy - thus putting them out of sight. I've thought many times how much smoother traffic could flow if only there were direct taxi routes. Every single runway requires large aircraft to be on the runway facing in a direction other than that of the take-off (3 backtracks and one crossing). Probably not a huge factor, but if that citation could have been holding short at the threshold rather than backtracking to it, then the kids mistake wouldn't have had such potentially grave consequences.