Advanced Education - is it worth it?

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flyingrox
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Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by flyingrox » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:46 pm

Hi everyone,

Long time browser but first time poster.

I am finally going to make the move to fly professionally. It seems like such a long process to get where I ultimately want to end up - a professional airline pilot.

I am looking for ways to accelerate myself ahead of others. I figure its going to take me a few years to get the hours needed to get to the airlines but am thinking of doing a master's degree in business on top of my undergraduate degree. I am hoping it will float me to the top of the massive amount of resumes probably waiting at every company.

Its going to cost me even more $$$ then I already spent on flight training so do you think its worth? I figure its better then buying more flight training like a PPC.
Thoughts/opinions appreciated.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by TopperHarley » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:58 pm

An undergrad degree is more than enough to make you competitive in terms of education at the airlines.

Getting a master's probably won't help in terms of getting your resume noticed. In fact, for many of the smaller companies, it will probably hurt you.

Education is always a good thing, but I don't think the master's is the best investment for you at this time. A degree or diploma will definetly get you more points on airline applications, which you already have. Combine your education with some good flying experience and a second language, and you'll be well rounded. There's no guarantees though, just keep that in mind.

I'd stick to flying for now. Wait until you're established, then do more schooling part-time if that's still what you want. If you think flying isn't for you, then the master's will definetly come in handy. But for now, I would get the flying out of the way first.
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Changes in Latitudes
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by Changes in Latitudes » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:03 pm

Getting a master's degree is a lot of hard work. That same hard work applied in a flying job will set you apart from others just fine. If you plan and think for a second that any employer will use that to differentiate you from any other low time pilot, you are in for a tough shock. If you hope to put that education to work down the road and have researched the degree to know that will be an option, then that is a good plan. It will not land you a low-time pilot's job or make your journey any easier.

I'm a bit curious as to why you said Master's Degree VS PPC. What's wrong with working hard, getting your first flying job and being the best possible pilot you can be? Those pilots come in all flavours, school-educated, life-educated and a combination of both. Regardless, no school will ever by-pass you from having to work harder than you ever imagined to get through this industry successfully. Plan on that much, don't expect any diversions from that little fact and you'll shine.

CIL (University "edu-maketd" to the Master's level; if that helps)

PS. You'll get paid to earn an advanced education in this industry just by being employed for the next 10 years. ;)
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Strega
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by Strega » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:42 pm

"Advanced Education - is it worth it?"


This is the reason pilots in North America are paid less than unskilled labour jobs.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by Lommer » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:16 pm

If a great flying career is what you want out of life - NO.
->postgraduate education is definitely unnecessary and may even harm your flying career for being "overqualified"
->undergraduate eduction is not worth the time/money if you are getting into the industry at a time when the economy and hiring cycle are good - the same amount of effort and time will take you much further in your flying career. At a slow point when it might take years on the ramp to get into the seat of an airplane, you may be well advised to spend those years at university earning a degree.
->completing highschool, however, is probably recommended these days :)

All that said, if you feel like you might ever like the option of leaving professional aviation for whatever reason (lifestyle, medical, significant others, DUI or event that makes you very hard to insure, etc), doing at least an undergraduate degree is probably a good call. If your undergraduate degree is in basketweaving, following it up with an MBA, LLB, or masters degree might be desirable too.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by Hedley » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:28 pm

Someone with a master's degree driving an airbus makes
about as much sense as someone with a Phd pushing a
broom in a lab. You could do it, but it would be kind of
a waste, don't you think?

IMHO, a degree of any kind is a waste for a unionized
heavy equipment operator.

If you want to get an MBA, sure. But you should be the
CEO of the airline, not pushing buttons in a cockpit.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by JBI » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:11 pm

Although I'm currently working on my LL.B., I agree with what the other posters have mentioned. If your goal is to be an airline pilot, an undergraduate degree is more than enough. While an airline might like the fact that you have an MBA, they'd prefer the 1500 or so hours of experience that you could obtain in the time it takes to get that degree.

Now, if you want to do something management related, that's a different story. Even still, I'd look into doing an MBA later on in your career. Focus on flying full time for the first little bit to get your hours up, and then once you've got some experience, you can look into some of the MBA options. For example, Queen's has an Executive MBA that you can do while still working http://business.queensu.ca/mba_programs ... /index.php and Daniel Webster College in the US has an online MBA for Aviation Professionals http://aviation.dwc.edu/ although I'm not sure about the reputation of that program.

Don't go spending more money by paying for a PPC or flying for free. Go work the ramp or instruct for a bit to build up time. They're not the most glamourous jobs, but they can be a crap load of fun and you'll be building time and ready for the airlines before you know it. As well, if you're feeling studious, on your spare time you can possibly do some online courses or take a second language course.

Good Luck!
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by bobcaygeon » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:21 pm

If your ready to fly commercially now then jump in head first. If the industry goes into the shitter b4 you start your multi IFR then go to school.

Why work the ramp for +2 years to get a couple of spots ahead??
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by flyingrox » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:52 pm

why would having an MBA actually hurt you with some companies. That doesnt make any sense. What kind of hick boss doesnt believe in edumacation.

As well, I forgot to mention I am interested in management/operations down the road. I am trying to keep as many doors open as possible.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by JBI » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:56 pm

flyingrox wrote:why would having an MBA actually hurt you with some companies. That doesnt make any sense. What kind of hick boss doesnt believe in edumacation.
You just answered your own question :) Some managers and supervisors don't want employees who are smarter than them or know more about business than they do.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by AntiNakedMan » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:43 pm

JBI wrote:
flyingrox wrote:why would having an MBA actually hurt you with some companies. That doesnt make any sense. What kind of hick boss doesnt believe in edumacation.
You just answered your own question :) Some managers and supervisors don't want employees who are smarter than them or know more about business than they do.
Especially if they've been running a successful business for many years, and someone who went to school and has no business experience tries to change things...
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by Lommer » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:32 pm

The other reason is turnover... Even non-aviation companies are loathe to hire over-qualified people based on the fact that they are more likely to jump ship soon for a better opportunity. In aviation where training costs are sky-high, this inclination can be even stronger.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by wallypilot » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:35 am

another question now...what if you have 5000 hours....PIC out the yin yang, SIC jet time (not heavy), but lots of turbo-prop PIC, is it then worth it to go for a masters (I already have a B.Comm) if one day, after 25 years of flying, I might like to get into management? The reason for my question, is that I am considering a part time MBA. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by Changes in Latitudes » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:51 am

Wally,

Many of the people I know that are really doing well in this industry have done just what you have said. Put the flying time in, seen as much as this business has to offer and then put the MBA or DR on top of that. It's worked out well for them. Again not a necessity in becoming a strong player, but it sure hasn't hurt the people I know.

It seems to be the better approach to solidify yourself with experience then throw the education on top of it.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by just another pilot » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:11 pm

Hey there - long time since I last posted. When I started in aviation a while back I had a marketing diploma and an aviation management diploma. I flew for ten years on and off and decided to go back to university for my Bed. I'm done this year and I am not sure whether I will resume my career in aviation or teach high school, however it is nice to have the choice. That, I think, is what having post secondary is about - choice. Any employer (aviation or otherwise) that cannot apprieciate the hard work and effort it takes to complete a post secondary education will most likely not appreciate your intrinsic value as an employee or individual.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by SQ » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:51 pm

just another pilot wrote: Any employer (aviation or otherwise) that cannot apprieciate the hard work and effort it takes to complete a post secondary education will most likely not appreciate your intrinsic value as an employee or individual.
thanks a lot justanother pilot to have found the right words :smt023
after that you have to consider the type of operations you want to make your career in.
but it is quiet strange to think that education and knowledge could stop you in your career progression added to good flying experience.
may be there is something I didn't understand here...
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:27 pm

may be there is something I didn't understand here...
Let me help you out.

Aviation companies can be owned by some of the lowest forms of life in society, thus their thought process will not be of the highest caliber. Some of the same caliber of people are in charge of over sight of said industry. Therefore you have a dysfunctional industry that does not require the same level of education or for that matter general IQ than that found in most other industries.

In many companies if you have a good education or high IQ you will be seen as a threat to their way of thinking.

Hope that helps clear this up for you. :mrgreen:
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by SQ » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:42 pm

. . wrote:Hope that helps clear this up for you. :mrgreen:
You bet, .!
I'm gonna erase all my studies from my resume right away and specify I'm a type-B personnality :mrgreen:
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by Chuck Ellsworth » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:53 pm

May I add that any pilot who does not avail them selves of as much education as they can is putting all their eggs in one basket.....and the basket of aviation is going to be a rough ride for your eggs.

Remember you are not compelled to tell your employer if you hold a degree in something not directly related to aviation.

I bet none of you would ever guess the old Cat has a Doctorate in marriage counselling. :mrgreen:
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.

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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by light chop » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:10 pm

MBA = Master's of Bugger All...
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by Hedley » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:04 pm

I bet none of you would ever guess the old Cat has a Doctorate in marriage counselling
Surely not, but I would have bet dollars to donuts that
you were a crafty and sly master of many languages.
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by albertdesalvo » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:48 am

Hedley wrote:I would have bet dollars to donuts that you were a crafty and sly master of many languages.
Got that one past the censors, eh? :rolleyes:
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Re: Advanced Education - is it worth it?

Post by just curious » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:45 am

IMHO, a degree of any kind is a waste for a unionized
heavy equipment operator.
Good try, but incorrect.

Pursuing a graduate degree as a gold star on an entry level resume is a stunning waste of time. Nor will it help, in climbing the seniority ranks to captaincy.

However, once you are there... I doubt there is a 705 operator in Canada that isn't actively trying to build their staff of trainers, line idoctrination staff, and check pilots. More to the point, training them from their own ranks in-house. There are several graduate programs which would make this an easier task. Most large companies at this point would financially support this.
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