Building PIC time

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172pilot
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Building PIC time

Post by 172pilot »

I've posted some questions regarding entry level time for a first FO job on a twin (maybe medivac etc), but now I'm wondering how to build up that intial time required.

I have a good, stable, well paying job. I can buy a 172 (split with a friend hopefully) and use that to build up a good amount of PIC time in the next couple of years doing x/c's on the weekends etc, holidays.

My question is: Is this considered valuable time, or would you rather see instructing or float/bush time?

Thanks - 172pilot.
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corn-shoot
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Post by corn-shoot »

Overall, time in bush and floats is good. But let's be honest, there aren't even that many jobs for lower timers in the bush, right? So what it really comes down to is you owning your aircraft vs instucting. I'd say just get that total time up...there's a lot to be learned in owning your own aircraft.

Yes, I know there's a lot to be learned in instructing, but that doesn't mean everyone should be an instructor. You've got to have the right attitude for it, or you're just doing your industry, and yourself, a great injustice.

Go get em'.
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KAG
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Post by KAG »

I knew alot of part time instructors, and they loved it. You could also go to your local jump zone (parashoot) and see if they need a weekend jump pilot. buying the plane is a good, but expensive way to build time.

Personally, I'd go the instructor route. Once you hit 1000 hours TT, take a leave from work during the summer and go fly for hicks and lawerence as a fire detection pilot to get that all important multi PIC.

goodluck.
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corn-shoot
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Post by corn-shoot »

King air...do you really think this industry needs another instructor who's sitting in the right seat just to steal time from his students?

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Post by BuddyJay »

I think too many people get into instructing for the wrong reason. I thought instructing was for people who enjoyed teaching others and learning more for themselves :? , not to use as a quicker stepping stone to get ahead of others. Not saying that's the case here.

There are many different areas of flying throughout Canada like fire patrol, medivac, airline, small charter, corp. etc.. I personally would pick an area that I would enjoy working at for a career and see what I need have under my belt to land an entry level spot within that company. Hours aren't everything and its taken me some years to figure this out... I myself may lack the hours but I'm sure I'll be able to tell anyone almost anything about a company or a part of the industry because of the time I have spent studying our industry and its diversity and how it all relates. Plus when the big day comes and I get my big break, I'll feel confident with my choice of companies I applied to and the area of flying I have choosen. It isn't the same area of flying I choose when I first started flying some years back :)

I guess my point is that doing something like instructing for the simple fact of getting hours and not for the enjoyment of teaching others to fly in full is the wrong way to go about it. If I were still a student I'd be concerned that my instructor only sees me as a flight recommend and not as an individual who NEEDS to know all the little things about flying early in their career...Am I being taught bare minimal because the instructor only needs 500 more hours of PIC then he's outta here....
I do know some instructors who have instructed all their lives and enjoy it very much and those are the ones I would want to learn from.

I'm not implying anyone involved here has done so or has that mind set, but I felt the above needed to be said.

Just my 2 cents
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Post by ahramin »

Buy the 172. You will learn more operating your own aircraft than you would instructing.

Make sure you get involved with operating the aircraft. Change the oil and lights yourself. Get a pair of safety wire pliers. Learn how to change brake pads. Do the annuals with the AME.

Instead of road trips, do flying trips. Use your cross country time to build up contacts. Network.

Get your night rating early. Get it in the fall and fly at night every week until you have thirty or so hours. Then fly at least three times a month until you have doubled that. That way when next winter comes and you havn't flown night all summer, you do not need to learn it all over again. Make sure you update your ETA with your wife if you are going to be an hour late. The difference between four and five pm may not be much but the difference between midnight and one am is enough for her to start making phone calls and reporting you missing. Get your 25 hours of x-country night PIC time.

Then get your instructor rating. It will be far cheaper to do it in your own airplane. Then go and teach part time.

Don't sell your airplane unless you are going to build or buy another one. It sucks not having an airplane. You just want to go a measly 300 km but you sold your airplane so you have to drive four hours to get there because the roads don't go the right way and ARGH. I should never have sold the 150 in the first place.

ahramin
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Post by shimmydampner »

Very well said buddyjay.
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not instructing for hours

Post by 172pilot »

I agree with you BuddyJay, and that's the prime reason I don't want to instruct. I know it's not for me, plus with a full time job etc I don't have the time, so I thought the 172 is my best option to build time versus renting every weekend which costs a fortune.

My concern was not knowing what the CP's look for when reviewing a resume. If these hours wouldn't be considered valuable experience I'll research something else.
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Post by Right Seat Captain »

I'd say the instructing time and personal C-172 flying would probalby be considered equal...BUT: If you think you'd enjoy instructing and can get a job, it pays, rather than you paying your flying time. Also you can build some good references if you don't already have them through instructing.
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Post by BuddyJay »

Hey 172 I hope I didn't come across the wrong way :)
I'm not a CP, so I can't honestly give you a true answer other than what I have experienced.

With regards to getting the time under your belt to land a FO spot on a small twin(medivac), some time can be more useful than others, depending on the operation you're in. Say Medivac like you mentioned, I think quality PIC(will aid in advancement to captain & experience) and Instrument time(speaks for itself) would be handy in that particular situation. Those I think would also aid in getting a CP's attention for such a spot, maybe more so over someone with a few hundred hours more than you.
So keeping with the medivac example, buying a 172 will get you that PIC time but may hamper the building of the instrument time. Either way it's a tough choice :?
Interesting note, when I inquired into the TT requirements specifically for FO spots in the past, I found some companies posted high TT to eleviate the massive amount of paper work they get. Plus insurance plays a part in TT requirements(I'm trying to figure this one out ;) ) and then you have contracts that smaller companies obtain(pipeline, etc) state that the pilots carrying out the services involved in the contract must have X amount of hours to fly.

I hope this helps you're decision making.
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Post by islander »

Nothing compares to operational experience... if you own the plane, you own the schedule. Trust me.
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Post by justplanecrazy »

Its one thing to say that if you don't own the plane, you don't get the operational experience but there will be FO's out there that look at the fact that you've never been in a regulated aviation environment.

When you are flying your own plane you are on your own time, you don't have any set timelines or objectives that you need to meet. You're simply out there smelling the flowers. I think as an FO I would definately favor an individual who built his time in a career setting not a recreational one. I would also test to see if he can demonstrate that he has a good working knowledge of what it takes to keep a plane airborn. Someone who's worked the ramp and dispatch as well as flight instructing would definately have a greater overall understanding of how things work than someone who flys his 172 to fly-ins. As well the instructing environment keeps you in the know.

Considering that you are working full-time this probably won't be a time-building option though. How much can you afford to spend? Have you looked into buying a quarter share in a light twin, or something with retractable gear and and adjustable pitch prop, and IFR capable? You generally need 50hrs on a twin engine for min. insurance requirements. Try and find someone privately who has a twin just sitting aroun. You may be able to get a pretty cheap rate. Do some trips into complex airspace to. Flying back and forth between a couple of strips 3nm apart won't look very good. All in all there are a lot more possibilities here than simply looking at a 172 or instructing.
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Post by KAG »

Corn shoot....did I say anything about stealing students hours? No.

172 pilot asked ways to build time, I gave a few. Instructing just happens to be - IMHO, the easiest and most convient way for 172 to accomplish this without giving up his/her present job and lifestyle.

Also....most instructors are there to build time to get to the next job..... that doesn't mean there there to "steal" hours......
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Post by corn-shoot »

King Air Guy wrote:Corn shoot....did I say anything about stealing students hours? No.

172 pilot asked ways to build time, I gave a few. Instructing just happens to be - IMHO, the easiest and most convient way for 172 to accomplish this without giving up his/her present job and lifestyle.

Also....most instructors are there to build time to get to the next job..... that doesn't mean there there to "steal" hours......
I understand that it wasn't implied, KAG. I think I can recall a time when I had an instructor sitting in the right seat with a parachute, so if he hit 100 hours multi while in the air he could jump out of the plane, and land in the cockpit of a dash 8 (oh those were the days)! Perhaps I have just been bittered by this attitude. Yep, I know it's a great way of gaining time, but do they have to make it so apparent while you're sitting there?
I guess one bad apple shouldn't spoil the whole bunch, but when that one apple makes you spew from every orpheus in your body, you kinda get turned off apples for a while. ;)
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PIC

Post by 172pilot »

Thanks for all the advice everyone. It's a bit overwhelming to know which is the most efficient way to build initial time. I'm sure I'll have more questions but right now I'm feeling this is the best way for me to go. I'll have to worry about ME time once I get my TT up there. I'll just keep praying I can land some sort of right seat twin job without much twin time.
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Post by Snagmaster E »

172 pilot

Don't we all? Don't we all?

Multi-time seems to be one of those catch-22's unless you're an instructor.
I get a kick out of the ad's that require 200 multi to fly a pilatus. If it's to enable you to transition to a twin they have, it makes sense. But if not......
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Post by chiefpilot »

172 Pilot;

Not that this counts for anything but.....
If you have the money for a 172 (even split with a friend) then save some of it and get your IFR if you don't have one, use some of the money to rent an IFR certified twin and build some time splitting the cost with your friend, go places far and away and build up the multi command time.
300 multi command is still better than 600 single, once you have purchased the 172, then there is insurance, fuel, maintenance and alot of hidden cost's that add up quickly.
You bring the twin back, they do the maintenance and pay for the insurance when you are not flying it, an instrument craps out they replace or fix it, otherwise it's your nickel.
Also, chances are you can get a good deal by buying a block of time from them.
I have seen many people buy an aircraft, get it all set, insurance etc, and then something craps out and they are to broke to go flying after they pay to fix it. Kinda like leasing a car.

CP.
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Post by Northern Flyer »

As for instructers stealing time, someone has to sit there and hold down that right seat. I don't think you should have any hard feelings against that person. I know that I didn't I was just happy to be in an airplane with my hands on the yoke, plus my instructer was hot.

172 guy, my suggestion is to look for a company were you can move up through the ranks. Maby start on a single, than progress to FO on a turbine, than capt on a piston or something, there are companys out there like this. Keep your eyes open and remember that every guy that flys over your house was in your shoe's at one time.
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