St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

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sanjet
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St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by sanjet »

"...when he got to Toronto he was told the flight was over booked and he was getting bumped, because he hadn't paid an assigned seats fee."

http://vocm.com/news-info.asp?id=29031

They just keep complaining about big red but they'll always keep flying with them... Really annoys me how politicians think they can bring this kind of crap to the media. I guess he's pissed he didn't get his 159$+tax fare worth of service

To think WJ does the same flight YT-YZ-QB, stop whining and change company for god's sakes.
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Last edited by sanjet on Fri May 30, 2008 8:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by whiteguy »

sanjet wrote:"...when he got to Toronto he was told the flight was over booked and he was getting bumped, because he hadn't paid an assigned seats fee."

http://vocm.com/news-info.asp?id=29031

They just keep complaining about big red but they'll always keep flying with them...

To think WJ does the same flight YT-YZ-QB, stop whining and change company for god's sakes.
Then pay the extra $20!!!!
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by 200hr Wonder »

So now your ticket is a seat reservation not a ticket? Overbooking is horse shit, should never happen. I pay the fee the airline asks for a seat not for musical chairs.

Overbooking should be illegal period. The airline has gone and sold the same apple to two people. Both people show up to get there apple and there is only one. Would that ever fly anywhere else? But being that the industry is stupid about pricing they need to do this. Sell the chance to have an apple but we can guarantee you one if we charge you more.

Bah I hate some of the business practices, Big Red, WJ all of em!
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by whiteguy »

200hr Wonder wrote:So now your ticket is a seat reservation not a ticket? Overbooking is horse shit, should never happen. I pay the fee the airline asks for a seat not for musical chairs.

Overbooking should be illegal period. The airline has gone and sold the same apple to two people. Both people show up to get there apple and there is only one. Would that ever fly anywhere else? But being that the industry is stupid about pricing they need to do this. Sell the chance to have an apple but we can guarantee you one if we charge you more.

Bah I hate some of the business practices, Big Red, WJ all of em!
WJ says they don't over sell their aircraft, not sure if its true or not.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by 200hr Wonder »

Nope they don't but they do tack on "surcharges" - business practice which I do not particulalry like. I did not mention which practice i did not like :mrgreen:
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by whiteguy »

200hr Wonder wrote:Nope they don't but they do tack on "surcharges" - business practice which I do not particulalry like. I did not mention which practice i did not like :mrgreen:
Bottom line is people don't look at the surcharges. As long as the fare is cheap they will book it. If AC has a fare $10 cheaper that WJ they will book it even if the fare is $10 more after all the taxes and surcharges have been added.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by CID »

I don't think the whole story is being told here. I've travelled plenty of times on Air Canada and have been bumped occasionally because the flight was oversold.

In the old days before you could pay extra for seat assignment, it was first come first serve. Or at least first "check-in" first served. The ticket agent gave out seats as long as there were some and then started handing out boarding passes with no seat assignments. The unlucky late comers would be on stand-by.

These days it still pays to be early but you have to jockey for position with those keeners that paid the extra 20 bucks for seat assignments. So the guy didn't neccessarily get bumped because he didn't pay his 20 bucks, he may have got bumped because he waited until the last minute to stroll into the airport to check in.

Airlines have been overselling flights at least as long as passengers have been failing to show up on time for flights. This new twist in booking flights just makes it all the more important to show up on time unless you want to fork over the 20 dollar seat insurance.

Through it all, we must remember one thing. Air Canada's booking schemes are a result of consumer demand. That's right, we asked for it. If you want super cheap flights, you need to put up with the little hooks.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by hoghead »

Dont want oversold flights? Fine, you pay for your seat and show up in time. You miss the flight, your seat is gone....buy a new one dickhead.
Oversold flights are the price we all pay to keep the system flexible for any changes due to wx, etc. Its also the price we pay for pricks like this who show up late and make a scene.
If we didnt have to offload bags for security, we would close doors on schedule for once if people had to pay for a new seat.
Reregulation!! = less idiots flying.

Captain, still waiting for 1 pax......
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by tonysoprano »

I don't know the whole story hear but I would just like to add a little insight to AC's fare structure. Unfortunately, even after having simplified their fares, AC still has different fares and if you book the cheapest, you're taking some risks. How many people read the fine print? They should or just let a travel agent do the booking. AC has always ovebooked because all the flights have a historical no-show percentage. It can range from 2-20%. This is a risk though because sometimes they all show up. At that point the ones with the lowest fare known as Tango, will not get a seat and go on stby for the next flt. Being a carrier that offers many flts, they feel more confident doing this. If you paid the full fare and and there are no Tango pax, the company then offers cash or future travel vouchers to anyone who volunteers to take a later flt. To the best of my knowledge, this is how it works. It's a game. I've seen it work very well for both sides and I've seen times when pax yell at the agents that they will never fly AC again. Yah. Right. They always comback but with perhaps a little more knowledge of the game. Loads have been and are at record levels, I might add. Mr. Important from Newfoundland should know all this by now. But I guess he's too important to know these "little" things.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by MrWings »

If I pay for a seat, it should be mine for that flight even if I choose to leave it empty. The airline still gets its money.

Overbooking is greed. I agree, it should be illegal.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by sanjet »

MrWings wrote:If I pay for a seat, it should be mine for that flight even if I choose to leave it empty. The airline still gets its money.

Overbooking is greed. I agree, it should be illegal.
Then why not go with a company that doesn't overbook, ie WestJet. The fact is, people just love to hate AC...
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by tonysoprano »

Overbooking is greed. I agree, it should be illegal.

I agree. But AC will not end this stuff anytime soon. Most people know how the system works and the system does work. Like I said, for some reason, they always come back. Oh BTW, not that it makes you feel any better, but this is a worldwide standard practice. If I recall the political folks out on the rock are not too happy with AC due to the whole London saga. Any excuse to "put' er down be fine, eh by?"
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by Cat Driver »

Air Canada is a foreign carrier to any real Newfie anyhow so we can feel free to discriminate.. :smt040
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by bmc »

200hr Wonder wrote:So now your ticket is a seat reservation not a ticket? Overbooking is horse shit, should never happen. I pay the fee the airline asks for a seat not for musical chairs.

Overbooking should be illegal period. The airline has gone and sold the same apple to two people. Both people show up to get there apple and there is only one. Would that ever fly anywhere else? But being that the industry is stupid about pricing they need to do this. Sell the chance to have an apple but we can guarantee you one if we charge you more.

Bah I hate some of the business practices, Big Red, WJ all of em!
Airlines don't want seats to go out empty. If you pay for seat, use it. If you don't, why shouldn't an airline sell it? Every flight has a different overbooking profile, depending on sector, time of day, day of week, etc. The simple truth is people don't always show up for flights. They don't. In some cases, it could be 10-20 percent of capacity, again, dependent on sector, day of week etc etc.

Yield management systems do their best to forecast demand and actual load. Most of the time they get it right. Not all of the time. Most of the time. Furthermore, the degree of overbooking varies from carrier to carrier. BA will not overbook business class. They will overbook economy.

To suggest stopping it suggests airlines should give up trying to maximize revenue. Not a great idea in today's environment.

I worked for an airline that had a stupid overbooking practice. They would regularly sell 40-50 seats over capacity on a B767. Too many people would show up and be denied boarding. They learned that to ensure they could get out, they needed to book the night before the intended departure date and the day after the intended date to be sure they could get out. Well, they eventually no-showed for some of those booked flights and the flight went out with open seats. What did the airline do? Increase the overbooking profile which made the matter intensify. Pure and applied stupidity and bad feelings with the community.

For the most part, airlines get it right. If it's on a market with a lot of frequency and competition, they might be more aggressive and open the profile knowing they could re-accom the passengers if in a denied boarding situation.

As for AC getting a bum rap, I used to jump on the band wagon and slam big red. I left Canada ten years ago and think I have a better balanced view of AC on the world stage. AC is a good airline. Milton has made some tough decisions but I think he's done a good job and he runs a good airline. Unfortunately, Canada does not have a lot of competition and so Big Red is an easy target.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by tonysoprano »

I'm looking forward to the day when Quebec and Newfoundland have their own flag carrier.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by EI-EIO »

That's not going to stop until Canada brings in EU style rules making bumping etc. punitively expensive for airlines. Fares will rise, of course, since AC won't have no-show revenue, but that's the price of making it fairer.

AC are becoming just another low-class airline - fees to get you rebooked, fees to stop you being bumped... soon Greyhound will give better customer experiences.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by sky's the limit »

EI-EIO wrote: AC are becoming just another low-class airline - fees to get you rebooked, fees to stop you being bumped... soon Greyhound will give better customer experiences.

And you only have West Jet to thank for it.


stl
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by Siddley Hawker »

I'm looking forward to the day when Quebec and Newfoundland have their own flag carrier.
They did, Quebecair and EPA, now part of Air Canada. :D
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by tonysoprano »

Geeze you're right. I forgot about that.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by whiteguy »

AC are becoming just another low-class airline - fees to get you rebooked, fees to stop you being bumped... soon Greyhound will give better customer experiences.[/quote]

So sorry but if you want the low fares you can't have the full service that AC used give. Its one or the other not both! Plus Greyhound won't get you from YYC-YWG in 2 hrs.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by EI-EIO »

sky's the limit wrote:And you only have West Jet to thank for it.stl
No, I blame AC, just as I blame BA and other legacy airlines for failing to demonstrate that it's worth paying a fair price to fly. They are merely reacting to the likes of WJ, and in the wrong areas like rebooking fees and paying not to be bumped, the latter of which could certainly be made illegal with ease and then what do they find to charge for next?
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by 200hr Wonder »

bmc wrote: Airlines don't want seats to go out empty. If you pay for seat, use it. If you don't, why shouldn't an airline sell it? Every flight has a different overbooking profile, depending on sector, time of day, day of week, etc. The simple truth is people don't always show up for flights. They don't. In some cases, it could be 10-20 percent of capacity, again, dependent on sector, day of week etc etc.
OK So I am a bit of a wacko and decide to book 3 seats so that I can I have a whole row to my self. Now clearly being only one person I show up and check in the other 2 going unclaimed can now be re-sold? I explicitly paid for that seat. It is now mine for the duration of the flight from YXX to YWW. If i choose not to use it the airline gets the advantage of less weight on the plane. But the seat is mine. If I wanted to buy a whole plane and not use one seat why should I not do that? Can someone please tell me one other industry in the world where they SELL you an item and then when you show up to claim your item it is not available to you? Car rentals? Hotel rooms? All similarly perishable items. I have never had a CONFIRMED reservation not get fulfilled. Certainly mistakes happen but Airlines are the only business that actually sells more items than they have and get away with it. If a company needs to sell > 100% of there product to make a profit, tell me there is not something WRONG with the pricing model? I have said before and I will say it again, prices are TOO LOW.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by full throttle »

AC are becoming just another low-class airline - fees to get you rebooked, fees to stop you being bumped... soon Greyhound will give better customer experiences.
It already does. Departs on time, seats are more comfy, bus driver is better looking than most flight attendants, and no one cares if you F__K in the washroom.
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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by BTD »

I can see the reason behind overbooking.

If someone misses their flight, they want on the next one. They probably aren't going to pay full price if any for another seat on the next flight. Now the airline has received one "fare" for two seats, because someone didn't show up on time.

From a numbers game it makes sense.

The above example about purchasing tickets for the entire aircraft makes sense, until you (who bought all those tickets) missed your empty flight and now want the next flight and all of its seats for no extra cost. On a grand scale its easier to see the reasons.

Obviously there are many downsides to the practice as well.

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Re: St. John's Councillor Upset with Air Canada

Post by 200hr Wonder »

If I miss my flight TFB I am out of luck for being an idiot! I mean really I would not expect a free seat if I through my own inability to show up on time missed my flight. Traffic? Should have left home earlier. That being said I did accidentally book one day earlier for a flight online by mistake and WJ was kind enough to move me to the next day as my booked flight was leaving for the change fee. If they had said no sorry you loose I would have not been upset I was the one who made a mistake.
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