Here we go again...Edmntn City Center

[parrot_head]

Report suggests closing Edmonton City Centre Airport
Last Updated: Thursday, June 19, 2008 | 10:41 AM MT Comments0Recommend0 CBC News

Edmonton could make $500 million by shutting down its City Centre Airport and selling the 217 hectares of land for development, says a city report.

The report, released Wednesday, says the land could accommodate a community of 32,000, and earn the city an extra $95 million in annual property taxes.

It has also fuelled a long-standing debate over what to do with the airport, just northwest of the city's downtown core.

"We'll listen to what people have to say and then we have to make a decision," Edmonton Mayor Stephen Mandel said Wednesday, mindful of the controversy over the issue.

Edmonton's City Centre Airport could be worth more closed than open suggested a new city report released this week. (CBC)
The airport, which began its life in 1929 as the first licensed airfield in Canada, grew to a thriving transportation facility in the mid-1990s, handling more than one million passengers.

But a series of hard-fought plebiscites in 1992 and 1995 led to the airport being closed to most scheduled traffic, and flights were moved to Edmonton International Airport, a 30-kilometre drive south of the city.

Mandel hopes the debate will focus on the future, not the past.

"Our job is to try to do the best job for the citizens of Edmonton [and] try to raise the greatest amount of revenue for the citizens of Edmonton in order to keep their taxes at a reasonable level."

The airport, which is limited to private, corporate and small commuter flights to northern Alberta, is only handling about 20,000 passengers a year, and council must decide if it's worth keeping the facility open, says the report.

"Personally I don't think that case can be made," said Coun. Ben Henderson, who represents the city's downtown.

"It's a large piece of property on which we can do a lot of things very close to the heart of the city. And as we talk about trying to create a more compact city, obviously it's an opportunity that we have to look at."

Supporters of airport vow to fight
Supporters of the airport say they will fight any plans to shut City Centre down. They insist the airport is a valuable asset.

"The airport has been here for decades and for it to be sacrificed simply because certain developers want to develop certain areas of downtown Edmonton seems like a huge loss for the City of Edmonton," said Mary Anne Stanway of the Kingsway Business Association, which represents businesses around the airport.

"If we could have a greater focus on making this airport work properly as an airport, bring cargo services back, develop charter services a little bit more ... we could have more employment and we could become more economically viable here in Edmonton."

City council plans to hold a public hearing in the fall before deciding whether to push ahead with closing the airport.

The city also would have to negotiate with Edmonton Airports, which operates the facility along with other local airports and has a lease for the next 46 years.

[North Shore]

Wasn't there some clause in the contract giving the Airport land to the city that it continue to be operated as an airport?

[Tube Driver]

One point that was neglected was how much it would cost to clean up the airport site. It has been used as an airport since the early days of aviation, I could just imagine the soil contamination that has taken place. If you add the cost of environmental assesment, cleanup, and potential costs of litigation over the contaminated site (ie Imperial Oil and Lynwood Ridge in Calgary, you will see that closing the airport is a liability not an asset.
I believe that this was left out of the discussion.

[ditar]

I wonder whether, if the airport were closed, all the medevac flights from northern Alberta would just end up going to Calgary. The difference in flight time between Edmonton and Calgary is probably the same or less than the amount of time it would take for an ambulance ride into the city from the Edmonton International.

[Flying Nutcracker]

How much revenue does the airport bring in? How long will it take for the airport to make $500 mill??? Is this kind of a short term gain for the city, or an overall longterm strategic win???

[skyismine]

Ummmm....

YEG already gets a bunch of medivacs from various places.

Infact there is a medivac lear 35 based also.

Aircraft also dont just show up at airports and say ''here you go''.Plans are made with area hospitals to accept patients based on what treatment is required.
If YXD was to go, aircraft are not going to start ''overflying'' Edmonton.

Man.

[small penguin]

From the sounds of it, they want to dumb the airport because of lack of usage. ie: in the article it mentions no commercial flights (charters excepted) go there. Why?

[ditar]

YEG already gets a bunch of medivacs from various places.

Yes I realize that and did not mean to imply that YEG gets no medevacs. Every medevac I've ever done to Edmonton from northern Alberta has been to YXD, though. I simply wonder what changes would be made if now all the flights had to go to YEG.

[Wacko]

From the sounds of it, they want to dumb the airport because of lack of usage. ie: in the article it mentions no commercial flights (charters excepted) go there. Why?

Wasn't that part of the reason why Peace Air went out of business? Or was it some company out of Calgary (QuickAir?)... I can't remember... but it was something about the airport not allowing the charters in... they had to go to the international?

I wasn't really paying attention but they did mention something on the radio that if city center closes... some flights might end up going to Calgary rather than Edmonton... not sure if it was the medivacs or not though...

Also... I hear there's a new takeoff fee at YYC? is that right?

[ditar]

Wasn't that part of the reason why Peace Air went out of business? Or was it some company out of Calgary (QuickAir?)... I can't remember... but it was something about the airport not allowing the charters in... they had to go to the international?

As far as I remember, a few years back the airport authority, under pressure from the city, decided to consolidate all scheduled passenger traffic at the international. An exception was made for scheduled service from northern Alberta with up to 10 passengers. But anyone from the south had to fly to the international (Integra Air, among others, fought a big battle over this). Charters still come into city centre from all over the place with all numbers of passengers. I've regularly seen Dash-8's, 1900's, and so on land there.

[Edmonchuck]

The title is appropriate - here we go again with misinformation and rumor.

The airport was consolidated in after a 1995 plebiscite where 77% of Edmontonians voted to consolidate ALL flights at YEG. This voter turnout was over 50% in this civic election. Over 3:1 voted for this consolidation. The Authority is doing what the city's voters MANDATED they do. 3:1 is in no way in need of a clarity act.

YXD is too small for Edmonton. Note the period at the end of the sentence.

Edmonton is too small for 2 scheduled airports. Note the period at the end of the sentence.

This debate was over in 1963. Note the per - OK, you get the hint.

This debate has killed Edmonton in more ways that I'd like to admit. It infuriated the then DOT who built YEG with the express belief that YXD was to be shut down. YEG was to be a major transfer point for the prairies for then Crown TCA. Hmmm, reneging on that deal probably didn't anger the Feds....naaaaaaah.

The medivac question is 1 billion percent a scare tactic. OK, 1 trillion billion gazillion % a scare tactic. Ask Capital Health. Strangely, they have plans for post YXD. Hmmmmm, nah, the major medical facilities being built at the U of A (well south of YXD and timewise equidistant to YEG) that are solely focused at things like heart transplants, cancer, etc so could not help our northern friends. Nah. Oh, and CH has the stats on how many were "saved" by this fixed wing medivac service being in YXD (not STARS which lands on hospital property), and the number is 0. No patient could be emphaticlaly proven to be saved by the 10 minute difference to YXD to the Royal Alex, or YEG to the University, the Misericordia, Leduc, or the Grey Nuns. Oh crap, did I mention 4 hospitals at YEG to one from YXD.? Oopsie.


Redeveloping the field will bring in more empirical revenue than YXD ever could at full capacity. This is fact. The soft benefits of business travel are proven with the huge spike at YEG, so YXD loses. The soft benefits of redevelopment are conservatively estimated at 90 million per year from the site ALONE, not to mention redevelopment all over the eastern side of the downtown core from smut shops and hookers to an actual tax paying, gainfully employed, spending populace.

As for Peace Air and QuikAir both blaming the EAA for their demise, that is a load of total bunk. They KNEW the field was closing to scheduled traffic. Poor poor poor planning in expecting lobbying to keep this cancerous debate open and ignoring to outright violating the 19 seat restriction lead to their demise. It is one gazillion quintillion billion uberpooperscoopertillion percent their fault.

Is it stupidity like the medivac lies, ability to have Chicago's airport traffic, and cries of "Edmonton will DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE I tell you!!! DIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*gurgle cough hack*" that have prevented the GA community from being able to get a compromise. Thank you CAANA. Thank you Kingsway Business Association. Thank you Killer Koziak. Thank you QuikAir, Peace Air, Air Mikisew, and all you dolts trying to flog this dead horse. I now have to look for new hanger space.

[tellyourkidstogetarealjob]

The title is appropriate - here we go again with misinformation

Thanks for the warning.

YXD is too small for Edmonton. Note the period at the end of the sentence.

Agreed. Forty years of stifling growth does tend to do that, but you are still right.

Edmonton is too small for 2 scheduled airports. Note the period at the end of the sentence.

Edmonton is too small for one significant airport! The city has consistently been beaten by Calgary when it comes to planning infrastructure and the airports question is only a very small part of that.

Until recently Calgary's 'C' train expansion had outpaced Edmonton's LRT significantly. This, and the badly designed bus service, has more effect on the city's growth than the YXD-YEG issue.

This debate was over in 1963. Note the per - OK, you get the hint.

Then why is YXD still operating? Big, bad, Kingsway Business Association?

The cluster of hotels in Leduc were only built in the 90's. Before that only the Leduc Inn and a couple of others in Leduc served the airport nearby. There were no hangars save Echo Bay and Spar until the 90's. This suggests private industry wasn't willing to throw money at YEG.

. No patient could be emphaticlaly proven to be saved by the 10 minute difference to YXD to the Royal Alex, or YEG to the University, the Misericordia, Leduc, or the Grey Nuns. Oh crap, did I mention 4 hospitals at YEG to one from YXD.? Oopsie.

That kind of polarized belief and twisting of facts is why the debate has gotten silly. You say the University Hospital is YEG accessible but don't also include it as YXD accessible. By the way, wasn't Royal Alex hit by an aircraft some years ago? Isn't it still the #2 hospital in Edmonton?

You include Leduc as accessible by YEG. Leduc sends their serious patients to the University. Why don't you just include the veterinary clinic in Devon to prove your point?

Misericordia is too far to be realistic for either airport.

redevelopment all over the eastern side of the downtown core from smut shops and hookers to an actual tax paying, gainfully employed, spending populace.

I love this one! If the most vibrant economy in Canada doesn't do it why do you think plowing under an airport will?

Redeveloping anything for the sake of increased revenue never works. Giving government more money is like feeding beer to an alcoholic. If they can't handle what they've got, more won't help.

If Edmonton really wanted to consolidate at YEG and save that White Elephant, they should have put their money where their mouths are thirty years ago and expanded the LRT all the way to YEG. It can still be done, but will cost a lot more. That would require a serious commitment from the voters who voted 3:1 to consolidate.

Until then, the YXD-YEG debate resembles the Dorval-Mirabel argument.

[Tonkalada]

If you look at Edmonton and Calgary 50 years ago. Edmonton had a greater population, a major University (Calgary did not), the provincial capital, strategically located (on major air routes, rail lines, hwy lines), located closer to all natural resources of any other major City in Canada. Edmonton was poised to become a major North American City. Calgary on the other hand, had very little going for it. But something happened. Something got in the way, and Edmonton lost its advantage to Calgary during the 60's and 70's. First of all major investment was happening in Alberta and companies needed to set up shop. The logical place, Edmonton-which was closest to the oil fields, human resources in terms of Education, government centre, transporation hub. As it turns out developing in Edmonton's downtown during this real estate boom that was taking place was cost prohibitive. It made no sence to construct a building where its potential could not be maximized. It made much more sense to go to Calgary where the building floor space could be maximized. Oil companies originally wanted to be in Edmonton but could not make an office building work downtown due to the height restrictions.
Imagine what Edmonton would be if it was not for the CCA. We would not only service the Oil sector, we would also have the head offices here too.
The CCA is expired

[Youngback]

I think Edmonchuk is Stephen Mandel.

0 people have been saved by fixed wing airplanes at YXD? That's a load of BS. I know firsthand of at least 20 for various ailments. Heart attacks, childbirth, and gunshot victims are a few of the ones that stand out.

20,000 passengers a year eh. Would be a lot more if the EAA would stop restricting flights into the city. Don't cite the lack of usage as a reason for shutting it down. EAA is the reason for the lack of usage.

[tellyourkidstogetarealjob]

Oil companies originally wanted to be in Edmonton but could not make an office building work downtown due to the height restrictions.

Most communities have height restrictions. Some don't even have an airport.

If YXD is the reason to not build downtown then why didn't they go to Strathcona?

Your explanation is too simple.

[ditar]

If the airport is closed, the Runway 29 Pub just won't be the same anymore. That is the most critical issue!

[skyismine]

Now this a Calgary and whatttt? Edmonton thing?

Come on now...

Use your flippin heads...

No wonder I never visit this forum any more.

[cyxe]

Nice airport to fly into, would hate to see it go. Also makes a good race track

http://www.airliners.net/photo/-/-/1242671/L/

[Edmonchuck]

(...)

Agreed. Forty years of stifling growth does tend to do that, but you are still right.

(...)

Edmonton is too small for one significant airport! The city has consistently been beaten by Calgary when it comes to planning infrastructure and the airports question is only a very small part of that.

Until recently Calgary's 'C' train expansion had outpaced Edmonton's LRT significantly. This, and the badly designed bus service, has more effect on the city's growth than the YXD-YEG issue.

(...)

Then why is YXD still operating? Big, bad, Kingsway Business Association?

The cluster of hotels in Leduc were only built in the 90's. Before that only the Leduc Inn and a couple of others in Leduc served the airport nearby. There were no hangars save Echo Bay and Spar until the 90's. This suggests private industry wasn't willing to throw money at YEG.

(...)

That kind of polarized belief and twisting of facts is why the debate has gotten silly. You say the University Hospital is YEG accessible but don't also include it as YXD accessible. By the way, wasn't Royal Alex hit by an aircraft some years ago? Isn't it still the #2 hospital in Edmonton?

You include Leduc as accessible by YEG. Leduc sends their serious patients to the University. Why don't you just include the veterinary clinic in Devon to prove your point?

Misericordia is too far to be realistic for either airport.

(...)

I love this one! If the most vibrant economy in Canada doesn't do it why do you think plowing under an airport will?

Redeveloping anything for the sake of increased revenue never works. Giving government more money is like feeding beer to an alcoholic. If they can't handle what they've got, more won't help.

If Edmonton really wanted to consolidate at YEG and save that White Elephant, they should have put their money where their mouths are thirty years ago and expanded the LRT all the way to YEG. It can still be done, but will cost a lot more. That would require a serious commitment from the voters who voted 3:1 to consolidate.

Until then, the YXD-YEG debate resembles the Dorval-Mirabel argument.

Gosh, it took only what, 10 minutes for this bull crap to appear!

If you would take, gee, I don't know, 30 seconds to think...nah, let's but an Edmonton vs Calgary barp in there.

Let me kill your garbage quickly.

40 years of "stiffling" is not 2 ~5,800 small runways that can't handle a 737-3. That is physics. ...but then who would expect on a pilot's forum that someone would know about aircraft performance? The Feds built YEG because they COULDN'T PHYSICALLY EXPAND YXD. What, you think CN was going to move? They were going to flatten the district of Oliver? Flatten the eastern half of downtown? Do you think all those citizens in the triangular swath it would take out in the north would love being sandwiched between 2 runways? That is why YEG was built. But hey, on an aviation forum, I guess aviation reality isn't discussed here.

Calgary blah blah blah...that is not even close to the reason why YXD was supposed to be mothballed. Give me a break. The biggest impediment to Edmonton was local politicians who felt entitled to provincial money. Calgary got the C-Train due to the Olympic bid, and Edmonton expected it to simultaneously fall from the sky...debate for another time.

Why is YXD operating? Political pressure from the province combined with a stupid decision in 1963. Simple. Hello Mark Norris and a slough of others holding purse strings.

If you bothered to take a simple look at the infrastructure builds for Edmonton, you'd see that the Henday is now on stream, the revised Terwillegar/170 will be an expressway to YEG, and there are other re-alignments happening due to the rapid expansion south. This puts the Misericordia squarely on the accessibility map and is why Capital Health is utilizing that facility. The seniors desperate to recover from Carbon Monoxide poisoning were sent where? Oh that's right, THE MISERICORDIA!!!!!! Get current already.

And I didn't say that the U of A was INACCESSIBLE from YXD. That is typical of the bull crap that permeates this debate. I said that they were time wise equidistant. I've done it, unfortunately. But hey, don't let careful reading try to get in the way of a debate littered with garbage. There's another one I'm about to kill, but that is to another poster.

Oh, and Devon actually has an excellent hospital...put that in your pipe and smoke it. The mention of Leduc and I guess I could INCLUDE Devon was immediate access for patient stabilization if needed...which is rare but mentioned in the Capital Health assessment. You know, the people IN the health care business!

Now for the crap about a lack of private investment in YEG over the years until the 1990's? When did an independent authority take over and get YEG out of the hands of a sulking Federal Government who had ignored the field? Could that coincide with the spur in development and aggressive push if YEG? NAAAAAAAAHHHHH

Face it buddy. You know nothing of the debate, or where it is going. If you did, you'd see a plan and a Right of Way secured for, gee, LRT to YEG!!!!! They didn't build it 30 years ago as, you guessed it, the anger over Edmonton reneiging on the airport decision upset the big government, and the myopic planners of the early 60's thought the car solved everything. LRT now and in the 1970'd took provincial money, and guess who owned PWA and had absolutely no desire to see YEG succeed due to the facility restrictions on a too small field that PWA BARELY made it out of...you guessed it, the PROVINCE. Gee, combine that with the regional debate that has stymied even bus service to YEG and you can start to see why LRT is taking awhile. I have planning documents from 1973 that simply state that no LRT is planned for YXD because it is due to be shut down and they planned LRT along the CP ROW to YEG. Hmmmm, that didn't get provincial funding.

Now for the height and development question. The East side of downtown is right under 30's approach. Non-ILS approach. Take it from there. I wonder why the once vibrant neighborhood fell on its face when the screaming flights started taking over the skies? Why is it littered with peep shows and XXX spots? Why? Simple. Every assessment by market and developers mentions the noise as the #1 reason. #1.

As for the Dorval/Mirabel debate, that is not even a good parallel. Stapelton, Centennial, and DIA is better. Dorval has the capacity to launch all types of aircraft, YXD does not. That fact alone is the reason why we are here. If YXD had 2 ~11,000' runways, I'd be looking at this from a whole other light. But again, why let the laws of physics come into a debate where pilots have their "remember when" orgies. I've never rolled my eyes so much as when the last PWA Herc Rat reunion went on and on and on about the heyday of YXD, even after they admitted the field was too small.

[Edmonchuck]

If the airport is closed, the Runway 29 Pub just won't be the same anymore. That is the most critical issue!

If they cared, they'd change their name....but the beer is still nice and cold!