Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

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AuxBatOn
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by AuxBatOn »

SAR_YQQ wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote: The fact that is was designed for carrier ops doesn't mean it can't operate from land.
Granted, but I think this was the best muti-role platform for Canada at the time (2 engines, Fly By Wire (brand new for the time), advanced avionics, designed with John Boyd Energy Theories in mind, can do well in A-A, can do well in A-G) I can think of 1 other jet that did all that back then and that's the Viper, but it only had 1 engine.
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xsbank
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by xsbank »

Rubber Ducky...
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by AuxBatOn »

xsbank wrote:Rubber Ducky...
Why bother buying something that IS NOT made for SAR and convert it into a SAR platform, when there are off the shelf solutions out there??? We don't need to slow the procurement down more than we need...
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SAR_YQQ
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by SAR_YQQ »

Not even in the running.

Doesn't meet even the basic requirements.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by WJflyer »

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North Shore
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by North Shore »

Why bother buying something that IS NOT made for SAR and convert it into a SAR platform, when there are off the shelf solutions out there??? We don't need to slow the procurement down more than we need..
Funny, says in my manual for the 215: "Supplement II applies to Utility category Model CL215 airplanes..with Search and Rescue configuration.." Never seen a 415 manual, but I'd imagine that it's much the same..
Not even in the running.

Doesn't meet even the basic requirements.
Which are? Low, slow and poor vis? That's all we do..
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by AuxBatOn »

North Shore wrote:[

Funny, says in my manual for the 215: "Supplement II applies to Utility category Model CL215 airplanes..with Search and Rescue configuration.." Never seen a 415 manual, but I'd imagine that it's much the same..
It was NOT primarily designed with SAR in mind. How many operators use it as a SAR platform?

ANY aircraft can be a SAR aircraft. Not every aircraft can do it well.
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xsbank
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by xsbank »

415 MP
Strength and Versatility

Flexibility and ruggedness are the hallmarks of the Bombardier 415MP amphibious aircraft. This versatile mission-specific aircraft combines a state-of-the-art surveillance suite with direct water intervention capabilities. It offers exceptional low-level, low-speed manoeuvrability. This makes it the perfect choice for a wide range of special missions on inland, coastal and offshore waters.
Special Missions

With Western civil certification for both aircraft and surveillance suite, the Bombardier 415MP amphibian is a proven ally in:
Search and rescue (SAR)
Civil SAR
Disaster SAR
Utility transport
Cargo
Personnel
Law enforcement
Illegal immigration
Drug and other smuggling
Illegal fishery
Terrorism
Piracy at sea
Environmental control
Oil pollution
Forest fires
Special Mission Equipment

Autopilot and military mission management system (MMMS)
Forward-looking infrared (FLIR)
Side-looking airborne radar (SLAR)
Fully integrated weather radar
Direction finder antenna (DF)
Still and video cameras
Cabin accommodation for stretchers and berths
Enlarged aft cargo door
Bombardier Jet Boat (BJB)
Marine radio package
Secure intercom

Last but not least, when the SAR-techs have nothing to do, when bobbing about in Comox Lake with the fishing rods out gets boring, they can waterski behind their own personal Bombardier Jet Boat. What more could you ask for? Doesn't look as cool as a Herc, but then Hercs ain't in the running anyhow.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by Rockie »

A crosswind landing in a hornet won't win you any applause from passengers (neither will a calm wind landing for that matter), but there aren't any passengers. The gear is way over designed for runway use and it has never been an issue with the plane. Nor is the fact that the plane was designed for the Navy if you discount the problem we had in the 90's over fatigue life due to the different role we used it for. I take it that problem has been fixed though by moving the goal posts farther down the field.

The CF-18 was exactly the right airplane for the CF both for the role it played and the economic benefits to the country. The original cost was around $5 billion, but McDonnell Douglas agreed to offset the cost by moving $5 billion worth of production up to Canada. That's why they were building MD-80 wings in Toronto for so long. From an operational standpoint it was the best airplane, and economically it was the best too.

It's hard to rationalize the cost of the SAR replacement though. But I don't know enough about the contenders to make a judgement since there may be design features that make it worth it. Canada has a long history of foisting inappropriate aircraft on the CF just to throw money in the direction of Canadair/Bombardier/Bell. The EW world begged for aircraft for years to no avail until the government threw a bunch of Challengers at them. It was the wrong airplane but it was all they were going to get. Medium/heavy lift helicopters were a pipedream until the government threw a bunch of Bell 412's at them and the totally inadequate Griffon was born.

Inadequate aircraft to save money isn't always the way to go.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by WJflyer »

xsbank wrote:415 MP
Strength and Versatility

Flexibility and ruggedness are the hallmarks of the Bombardier 415MP amphibious aircraft. This versatile mission-specific aircraft combines a state-of-the-art surveillance suite with direct water intervention capabilities. It offers exceptional low-level, low-speed manoeuvrability. This makes it the perfect choice for a wide range of special missions on inland, coastal and offshore waters.
Special Missions

With Western civil certification for both aircraft and surveillance suite, the Bombardier 415MP amphibian is a proven ally in:
Search and rescue (SAR)
Civil SAR
Disaster SAR
Utility transport
Cargo
Personnel
Law enforcement
Illegal immigration
Drug and other smuggling
Illegal fishery
Terrorism
Piracy at sea
Environmental control
Oil pollution
Forest fires
Special Mission Equipment

Autopilot and military mission management system (MMMS)
Forward-looking infrared (FLIR)
Side-looking airborne radar (SLAR)
Fully integrated weather radar
Direction finder antenna (DF)
Still and video cameras
Cabin accommodation for stretchers and berths
Enlarged aft cargo door
Bombardier Jet Boat (BJB)
Marine radio package
Secure intercom

Last but not least, when the SAR-techs have nothing to do, when bobbing about in Comox Lake with the fishing rods out gets boring, they can waterski behind their own personal Bombardier Jet Boat. What more could you ask for? Doesn't look as cool as a Herc, but then Hercs ain't in the running anyhow.
We don't care about amphibious capabilities, we care about being able to fly in a mountain valley in a possible snow storm looking for survivors of an airplane crash. And if we find survivors, we want the ability to . people and equipment out the back of the airplane. That means we want an airplane that is fairly maneuverable, has plenty of reserve power to climb up over a mountain, and has a rear ramp that people and equipment can be thrown out from.

The Buff can do that, but it's slow and getting cramped. The Herc is also capable of doing the job, but it is expensive to operate. Therefore, we need something in the middle; big enough to carry all the equipment and SARTech's needed for a mission, while being small enough to be more economical than a Herc. Hence the two contenders: EADS C-295, and Alenia's C-27J. One has the advantage of meeting all possible requirements while having a supply chain right next door. The other one is just cheaper and barely meets requirements. I leave you to imagine which is which.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by square »

the Bombardier 415MP amphibian is a proven ally in:

Illegal immigration
Drug and other smuggling
Illegal fishery
Terrorism
Piracy at sea
Sweet action! I'm gonna get one for the mob.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by Widow »

Viking Buffalo search and rescue offer may be trumped by Alenia
By Kate Sarsfield

Attempts by Canada's Viking Air to restart production of the de Havilland DHC-5 Buffalo utility aircraft could be scuppered by the Canadian government. Ottawa may opt for new aircraft for its future fixed-wing search and rescue requirement and reject the British Columbia-based company's proposal to modernise the country's fleet of ageing twin-engine Buffalos.

The government is preparing to issue a tender for 17 new aircraft and the Alenia C-27J Spartan is hotly tipped as the favourite. "We were working with the Canadian Defence Forces on a modernisation of the Buffalo covering engines and avionics, but in November last year work stopped when they told us they were reviewing their fixed-wing programme," says Viking chief executive David Curtis. "The only complaint they had is the Buffalo is getting too old, but the upgrade will extend the aircraft's life considerably."

Viking says it can build a modernised version of the Buffalo with Pratt & Whitney PW150 engines, glass cockpit and synthetic vision, forward-looking infrared and night vision capability - similar to what is offered in the Twin Otter - for 40% less than the cost of the C-27J. "The Buffalo offers an effective, economical and Canadian solution to the replacement issue and Viking is prepared to work with the government to develop a staged approach to upgrading and modernising the current fleet," says Curtis.

The Buffalo, last produced in 1982, could be back in production within four years, Curtis says and could also be developed for other missions including commercial passenger transport. Canada's current Buffalo search and rescue aircraft - used in the Rocky Mountains and coastal British Columbia - have been in service since the late 1960s. Around 125 of the types were built, of which 50 remain in service.

Alenia is also pledging major industrial benefits for Canada if it wins the contract, Curtis says. These include $3 billion in high-tech aerospace work to Canadian companies and provision of access to further opportunities through parent Finmeccanica.

Viking owns the rights to a number of older de Havilland designs for which it is responsible for worldwide support. The company is no stranger to resurrecting defunct aircraft. In 2007 it restarted production of the DH-6 Twin Otter - last produced in 1988 - delivering the first revamped model equipped with new engines and avionics late last year.

Seven more of the types, dubbed the Series 400 Twin Otter, are scheduled for delivery by the end of the third quarter.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ed-by.html
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by xsbank »

Typical, we are going to buy something brand new that nobody but us uses and it will take 5-10 years to be delivered at a huge cost over-run then it won't work anyway. Hello, Cormorants? Hello, S-92s?

Get something cheap from Bombardier that we build here and screw the pilots - nobody ever asks us what we want to see anyway. You can fly a Duck low and slow and it will turn on a dime with excellent vis. Likewise a nice new Dash 8. Maybe put the 400 engines on the 300?

Just think of all the fun you could have bobbing about on Comox Lake with a fishing rod while you're waiting for one of us to thunder in.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by SAR_YQQ »

USAF and US Army are buying 150 C-27J's and establishing a North American division of Alenia - with final assembly on the continent.

Support will not be an issue - cross border support and training opportunities abound!
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by Valhalla »

AuxBatOn wrote:To almost every SAR pilots (past and present) I've talked to, most of them would rather quit than fly a Dash 8 doing SAR in the mountains. Have you seen the vis up front in that thing !?
The Dash-8 would not be ideal in the mountains. But don't forget that the C-27J is a 40 year old cargo plane (the G.222) with new engines and avionics, that is designed to cruise 60 knots faster than the Dash, and far faster than the Buff.

The C-27J was not originally designed to be a SAR airplane, and with its higher cruise speed would no doubt be worse in the mountains than a "Super" Buffalo.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by WJflyer »

Valhalla wrote: The Dash-8 would not be ideal in the mountains. But don't forget that the C-27J is a 40 year old cargo plane (the G.222) with new engines and avionics, that is designed to cruise 60 knots faster than the Dash, and far faster than the Buff.

The C-27J was not originally designed to be a SAR airplane, and with its higher cruise speed would no doubt be worse in the mountains than a "Super" Buffalo.
The C-27J has just as slow stall speed as the Buffalo; I know it can fly around 80-90 knots with the rear door open perfectly fine. I also know that the C-27J can also fly on one engine at 140 knots doing 40 degree bank turns with ease. And of course, I also know that the C-27J is massively overpowered, to the point where single engine flying is not a major concern for the aircraft.

Both major contenders (C-295 and C-27J) are fine aircraft for 90% of SAR area in Canada; one however, of course, is capable of doing better than the other. On the BC Coastal mountains, it maybe a little more trickier, but of course, we can of course re-evaluate how we operate in that region. In the end, we should end up with either the same level of service as before, or better. That is the intention, and that is how we plan on moving forward.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by Kosiw »

Funny how tunnel vision has set in for the next generation of SAR aircraft with all comments directed to how it would perform in the "rocks" on the wet coast, much of Canada has a northern/arctic climate...anyone care to comment on how the C27 or C295 would perform after overnighting at -45c in Alert or Resolute Bay or Hall Beach during a SAR operation? How would each perform landing in Pangnurtung with its 2900' gravel/snow-packed runway or any of the abandoned (but still useable DEW line strips across the central arctic) Since more international flights are using more Polar Routes over the Canadian Arctic, Northern Command must have thought of nightmare scenarios of a major airline disaster in the arctic and how a response would occur....sending the fleet of4 Twin Otters out from Yellowknife or waiting several hours for Hercs to arrive from Winnipeg or Trenton must not be a pleasant thought....hopefully basing more SAR aircraft in the 'knife' or out of YFB on a rotating basis would have some merit...personally I would like to see the military purchase a mix of new Twotter 400 series and C27's....
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by RLP »

For those who believe the C-27J has "as low stall speed as the Buffalo", Google "EASA certification C-27J", and you will find out that VMCA is 105 Knots. You might want to rethink that statement about flying around at 80-90 knots.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by WJflyer »

RLP wrote:For those who believe the C-27J has "as low stall speed as the Buffalo", Google "EASA certification C-27J", and you will find out that VMCA is 105 Knots. You might want to rethink that statement about flying around at 80-90 knots.
Civilian certification and military certification are two totally different animals... Why? Because the performance charts for a civil certification are held to a higher standard. The difference is due to the fact that the military qualification process varies from the civil type in that it places much less emphasis on validating performance charts. To mitigate this fact the military qualification process de-rates performance charts, adding in a fudge-factor to mitigate the fact that they have not been adequately validated by a rigorous process. Stall speeds for the some aircraft may chart higher on a military qualified aircraft compared to a civil certified aircraft despite the fact that the aircraft are identical. The Buffalo, for example, in CF service is military certified only, and as such, the performance data for CF Buffaloes are de-rated.
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Re: Feds consider $3-billion search plane buy

Post by SAR_YQQ »

Search speed that is generally accepted by the Orange dudes in back is 120KIAS. We never fly slower than that unless we are on final run for equipment drops (100ishKIAS min) We maneuver at 120KIAS with flaps.
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