Logging X-C time

[Tim]

Got to thinking about this after the thread about putting your own name in the logbook. What do you consider x-c time when you're logging it? I've heard many things since ive started my flying career:

-must go farther than 25NM from your departure airport, anything outside that is x-c
- " " " " " " " " " and be navigating to an airport or waypoint
-you can't log x-c when in imc
-you can only log x-c if its to a difference airport than you started at
-and all kinds of other little details than seem to vary from person to person

curious to hear other peoples method as well as find an official refernce if anyone knows of one (im pretty good with cars, but haven't found it, please point me in the right direction if there is one)

[Snowgoose]

If I land at different airport from which I took off from, that's cross country to me.

[Tim]

would you count a patrol route of some type that returns to the same airport x-c?

[navajo]

I have talked with a guy from TC who certified my logbook for the ATPL and he told me that you can log IMC and X-C time for a same leg, and according to him, IMC time is in fact IFR time, so whenever you filed IFR, you can count it IMC. According to him, IMC is air time and X-C is flight time. The guy didn't have any reference to confirm it was the right way to do it but this is how TC works, the rules are not clear at all, so anyone can interpret it the way he wants. It's probably the most efficient way to avoid bureaucracy. This is the way that guy works, but I heard different version, depending where in Canada you ask for your license.

[Snowgoose]

I have an A license now so hours don't matter anymore. I was told to log IFR you have to be in IMC. IFR time should be about 10-15% of your total time. I don't agree because IMC or not, you're following the IFR rules and you have to have an endorsement to do it. Such is life. A different TC inspector a different story almost every time. X/C and IFR are indepenedent. You can navigate to another airport in cloud, That's x/c to me.

As for the patrol route, you might need to detail the route in the remarks section if you want to log x/c. A friend of mine who used to instruct would have the student take-off fly overhead and say ok now divert to the practice area. They'd pull out the map and plan it. They took off and landed at the same airport but logged some x/c.

As for IMC and Cross country, I took off from Toronto Island and flew in IMC to Pearson. Grad total of .3 airtime. Logged at .3 x/c, 1 approach and .3 IFR.

[PAJ]

Sorry for what might sound like a noob question (Weekend Warrior Pilot) but why is it important to log X-Country time? It was important for me during training in terms of getting a PPL but now? Is there some sort of X-Country requirement for new ratings/endorsements?

[navajo]

It is important for the ATPL, 25 PIC X-C night time, and some requirments for day X-C as well.

[PAJ]

Thanks

[Tim]

you also need a total x-c time of 100 pic (you cant count the 25 night towards this too) + an additional 100pic or 200sic or a combo of that for the a's

[Bruce Gorle]

Ah the flying to a different airport is x-country only argument. On Dec. 14 1986 Dick Rutan and Jeanna Yeager departed westbound from Edwards AFB. Nine days later they landed from the East having circled the globe nonstop. Should that be a local flight? There is no definition in the CARS for X-country.

[alti2d]

About the IFR time logging thing...

The regs say one must log
401.08 (2) (d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

IFR is defined as
"IFR" - means instrument flight rules; (IFR)

"IMC" or "instrument meteorological conditions" - means meteorological conditions less than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI for visual meteorological conditions, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud;

I see that one must log 'instrument time' in order to earn one's instrument rating or commercial licence, etc. So there seems to be a clear distinction in the rules between logging IFR flight time and instrument flight time. Am I reading this right?

From the practical perspective, I'm sure companies are more interested in the actual instrument time logged, versus the hours flown in 40 miles vis and filing IFR.

[Snowgoose]

Interesting point, the logbook says Instrument time, not IFR time. Maybe that's what the TC Inspector meant when I asked him.

[alti2d]

Ah the flying to a different airport is x-country only argument. On Dec. 14 1986 Dick Rutan and Jeanna Yeager departed westbound from Edwards AFB. Nine days later they landed from the East having circled the globe nonstop. Should that be a local flight? There is no definition in the CARS for X-country.

Fortunately our friends in the USA have defined what cross country flight time is and this flight would have followed those rules which are found under CFR chapter 14 61.1 (3), and to broadly summarize, it is

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.


When you start crediting it towards ratings or experience, then different definitions begin to apply, for example an ATP candidate must count the landing aerodrome as 50 nm away to use that time to credit towards their ATP xcountry requirement, AND, interestingly, military pilots going for their commercial rating must only fly further than 50 nm from the departure base to count that time, with no landing point intended.

I would say, in Canada, if you have to leave the local area, it is a cross-country. ie outside 25 miles from departure. but that's just me, can't find a reg to back it up.



edited for clarity

[Tim]

i've seen the american regs before, and ive never been able to find a canadian equivilant. its funny that tc requires us to log a specific type of time for licenses but doesn't tell us what it means.

as for the imc thing, ive always figured that if you send a resume with 1500hrs and 1300 'instrument' they'll know you weren't actually flying in the soup for all of it and vice versa if you log it only when you're in it. my logbooks says 'actual imc'. but that's been beat to death so lets not get into that again......

in my opinion if you navigate to any point by either dead reckoning or instrument nav then its cross country. so someone flying a pipeline or fire patrol logs it. an instructor and student log it when theyre doing diversions. if youre just out bombing around for shits and giggles then it doesn't count.

[Cap'n P8]

The PPL, CPL and Instrument rating standards outline exactly what is required for Cross-country requirements.

In regards to IFR...spell out the acronym and the R stands for Rules. Doesn't matter if the WX is CAVOK, if you fly IFR you fly instrument rules, you may or may not be logging instrument time while doing this.



In regards to logging instrument time there are several ways to to this:

Actual - when you are flying around and the wx is below VFR and SVFR limits this is the column you put the time in

Simulated - when you are flying around in VFR wx with a hood on and an appropriately qualified safety pilot in the other seat

Simulator - when you are flying around in a box that is firmly affixed to the floor (FTD) or in a box that moves around on hydraulic jacks (FFS and can cost more than twice the real aircraft)



Just like the XC req's, the standards are all laid out for each level of licence and rating exactly what is required for instrument time.

Everything you need to know is detailed in Chapter IV of the CAR's

[Tim]

Just like the XC req's, the standards are all laid out for each level of licence and rating exactly what is required for instrument time.

Everything you need to know is detailed in Chapter IV of the CAR's

please start another thread to talk about ifr (by the way a bunch of what you said is incorrect, ill post more info in your thread)

actually the standards do NOT define a x-c, nor is anything detailed in PART (not chapter) IV of the cars. unless you care to prove me wrong with a reference.

the standards you mentioned only layout the requirements of what must be done for the particular rating. i.e. distance, number of stops/appchs. nowhere does is say WHAT exactly is x-c time, it only says what you have to do ON a x-c to qualify for a license. you see its not just enough to have an opinion on matter like this. you have to have a reference. sometimes your only refernce is a tc official (might only be an opinion from him, but its his official opinion). just ask hedley how important interpretation of the cars is.

[Cap'n P8]

Okay, well first off I didn't say it defined the term XC. I said it laid out the XC requirement for each licence and rating ie 150 nm for private, 300 nm for commercial, 100 nm for instrument. What else do you need to know? Unless you're planning on flying from Markham to Buttonville to City Centre for a 100 hours...Do you think they're going to look at your logbook and measure each leg for distance in your logbook for the rest of your XC hours? Trust me, by the time yo start working after your CPL, XC will not be any issue (well maybe the night part if you're flying floats.)

Second, I'm not starting another thread for IFR...because it came up in this one. I was simply trying to clarify something that someone else had posted, specifically, you don't log "IFR", you log instrument time...in one of three ways. My first logbook had those exact categories I specified. Maybe TC calls them by a slightly different name, like for example:
Actual - when you are flying in IMC
Instrument Ground - some form of FTD or FFS
Simulated - under the hood

In any case please feel free to enlighten me if you feel I have it wrong, it has certainly happened before.

[AuxBatOn]

"technically", if you're in a 2-crew environment, you are in control during a portion of the flight and you are using the instruments to fly, could you log that portion as Simulated Instrument?

As far as X-Country, I seem to recall a rules saying you can't coun't IF Time (simulated or actual) as X-Country time towards your licence (ie: you can't double dip. If you do an IF X-Country, it's eighter X-Country time or IF time for the license requirements) Log both in your logbook.

[Cap'n P8]

I suppose you could call it that, but I don't know many working Joe's (or Jill's) that fly around with a hood so they can keep on claiming instrument time when they are in VMC. The pax would probably find that funny!

[AuxBatOn]

I suppose you could call it that, but I don't know many working Joe's (or Jill's) that fly around with a hood so they can keep on claiming instrument time when they are in VMC. The pax would probably find that funny!

Who said you NEEDED a hood? You only need to be flying using instruments. I never put a hood on in my life. For someone in need of IF time for the ATPL... It would be a solution.

[Cap'n P8]

Well I believe (but no I'm not going to look for a reference) you have to have some sort of view limiting device. If you are flying in VMC and you can see the horizon then it isn't really flying by sole reference to the instruments. Who are we kidding anyways, Otto is probably flying!

[AuxBatOn]

Well I believe (but no I'm not going to look for a reference) you have to have some sort of view limiting device. If you are flying in VMC and you can see the horizon then it isn't really flying by sole reference to the instruments. Who are we kidding anyways, Otto is probably flying!

The limiting device is only required on the test, AFAIK. I don't think it has anything to do with logging simulated instruments.

That'd be nice that after take off, you examiner gives you your first system's malfunction : Otto can't do its job anymore

[Cap'n P8]

Maybe not, I don't really know. But I do believe the intent of the licence requirements is to prove your capability to fly the airplane without outside reference and if you can see outside doesn't that defeat the purpose.

Plus at that stage of your career, I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity to log actual instrument anyways.

[Tim]

Trust me, by the time yo start working after your CPL, XC will not be any issue (well maybe the night part if you're flying floats.)

the reason i asked the inital question in this thread is because i became curious as to what x-c time was when i was tallying up my ATPL times. in the ATPL regs (unlike the PPL, CPL) dont list any requirements for the x-c time, they just say you need to have it. the amount of time is not an issue for me, it was just a curiosity thing.

In any case please feel free to enlighten me if you feel I have it wrong, it has certainly happened before.

ditto, thats why i asked for the ref. id rather know if im wrong.

[

[Cap'n P8]

Honestly Tim, they are really only going to confirm that you did the required XC flight (the one specified in the standards for the licence) and that you have the required XC time. They are not going to look at each leg and measure the distance from each airport to airport.

I am still curious to know what you think I have wrong in regards to logging instrument time?