The personal log book thing.

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The personal log book thing.

Post by Cat Driver » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:48 pm

Reading this forum and talking to other pilots there seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding the keeping of a personal log book.

The CAR's outline what is required and the requirements for keeping one seems to be quite straight forward, so why do so many pilots think they are required by regulation to record all their flying in their personal log book?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Rudder Bug » Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:33 pm

I think a pilot log book is no more than a personal document in Canada. In some other countries it can be considered as an official document.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Antidote » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:08 pm

Hey Cat,

First let me say that I usually read your post with a lot of interest, seeing as you have proved to be someone with a considerable capacity for critical thinking, which is something I have a lot of respect for.

That being said, I must admit I myself was under the impression that it was a regulatory obligation to maintain a personal log book and I believe that for the purposes for which this document was created, the obligation to record all flight in it is implicit, if not explicit in the formulation of the CARs.

Before replying in this thread, I took the time to consult the CARs to make sure my initial impression wasn't forged by "popular wisdom" rather than information.

Consulting CAR 401.08, my first impression remains, or is even confirmed IMO.

Paragraph 1 states that:

"Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log"

This paragraph also states this to be for the purposes of 1) issuance of a permit/licence/rating or 2) to conform to recency requirements. Which basically means all pilots are subject to it because from Rec pilot to AA, we all have recency requirements to conform to.

Finally, paragraph 2 states that a logbook maintained for these purposes "shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight"

Therefore, I believe it is a reasonable assumption, made indeed by many pilots, that there is a regulatory requirement to record all flight made in a personal log book, even if just for the purpose of recency requirements.


Edited for clarity.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Antidote » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:48 pm

Actually I just realized my argument had already been made in the other thread so... disregard.

Nonetheless, coming back to your argument about being able to prove recency, paragraph 2 of 401.08 does state IMO that each flight counting towards said requency has to be logged in a personal log book. So I maintain my position that it is required... in regulatory terms.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by sky's the limit » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:26 pm

Well,

I haven't had a log in years, no trouble over here yet.

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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Cat Driver » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:59 pm

Antidote:

Critical thinking would include reading the wording of the CAR's.

So lets read what they really say.

I have high lighted in red what you must keep a personal log of.

Assuming you are not applying for a permit, crew license or a rating you only need to log proof of recency.....which as I recall is five takeoffs and landings in I believe the last xxx months. Nowhere can I find the requirement to log all ones flying time in a personal pilot log book.



401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person

(a) is the holder of the log; or

(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Rockie » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:50 am

You're absolutely right Cat. I have flying time that doesn't appear in my logbook as well, which I'm sure most of us do if we've been around long enough. But I don't need it to apply for any licence, and I've never claimed to have it in any interview I've gone to. As far as the world is concerned that time doesn't exist. But every minute of time that does appear in my logbook is legitimate.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Hedley » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:18 am

Therefore, I believe it is a reasonable assumption, made indeed by many pilots, that there is a regulatory requirement to record all flight made in a personal log book, even if just for the purpose of recency requirements.
Such an assumption would be incorrect.

CAR 401.05(1)(a) says:
Recency Requirements

401.05(1) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Subpart, no holder of a flight crew permit, licence or rating, other than the holder of a flight engineer licence, shall exercise the privileges of the permit, licence or rating unless

(a) the holder has acted as pilot-in-command or co-pilot of an aircraft within the five years preceding the flight;
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#401_05

So, to satisfy CAR 401.05(1) you only need to log a flight every 5 years.

If you want to carry pax - some people do, some people don't -
then CAR 401.05(2)(b) applies:
(b) where a passenger ... is carried on board the aircraft, has completed, within the six months preceding the flight,

(i) in the case of an aircraft other than a glider or a balloon, in the same category and class of aircraft as the aircraft, or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same category and class as the aircraft, at least

(A) five night or day take-offs and five night or day landings, if the flight is conducted wholly by day, or

(B) five night take-offs and five night landings, if the flight is conducted wholly or partly by night
So if you want to legally carry pax, you must have logged at least
five takeoffs in the last six months, which very might have been
one flight of five circuits and bumps that occurred 5 months,
3 weeks and 6 days ago.

Now for the "24 month" rule, which must be the most contravened
regulation in Canada: CAR 401.05(2)(a) which says:
(2) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Subpart, no holder of a flight crew permit or licence, other than the holder of a flight engineer licence, shall exercise the privileges of the permit or licence in an aircraft unless the holder

(a) has successfully completed a recurrent training program in accordance with the personnel licensing standards within the 24 months preceding the flight;
which incidentally has NOTHING to do with logging flight time.
To comply with this reg, all you have to do is fill out the
questionnaire in the ASL with the answers they provide.

So, if you don't want to carry pax, you only need to log
one flight every 5 years. If you want to carry pax, you
only need to log one flight every 6 months (with 5 takeoffs
and landings). That's it.

Realistically, there are two kinds of pilots:

1) pilots that will obtain more licences and ratings in
the future, and will apply for more flying jobs, and

2) pilots that won't obtain more licences and ratings
in the future, and won't apply for a flying job.

Pilots in bin #1 need to maintain a complete,
pretty logbook. Pilots in bin #2 don't.

A good example of #2 would be my Dad. He
doesn't bother to maintain a logbook, and I
would be glad to go to the Tribunal again to
talk about it. I'm there pretty well every month,
so why not another trip?

He doesn't carry any pax - he's a cranky old
single engine fighter pilot - so the six month
rule doesn't apply.

Ah, but you say, the five year rule applies.

Well, yes and no. Even though we are illegally
"banned for life" from ever performing at another
airshow in Canada, ever again - thanks, Chris -
every year he re-qualifies as an airshow pilot via
an ICAS evaluation. Since Transport rather childishly
refuses to accept and process his "Statement
of Aerobatic Competency" - which they are legally
required to do - it is instead issued and processed
by the FAA.

So, if Transport wants proof that my father has
flown in the last 5 years, they can ask the FAA
for the records that they refused to process.

The FAA in fact maintains his logbook, of one
flight every year, conducting aerobatics at
low altitude, in their file on him.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by wrenches and radios » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:51 am

If in fact you need to keep a personal log, how long do you need to have the old log achived?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Hedley » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:21 am

As soon as you log one flight in the new log (assuming you
do 5 takeoffs and landings, etc to satisfy CAR 401) then you
can chuck the old one if you wish. Not many people do, though.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Cat Driver » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:53 am

When I did my first flight in Canada after many years of being banished from being able to earn a living in Canada by TCCA I did five solo circuits in the Husky so I could legally carry a passenger.

How any regulatory body in a so called democracy can arbitrarily deny a citizen their right to work in the career of their choice is a mystery.

However like Hedley and his family I just consider who made the decision and went to other countries to work.

Living close to Vancouver I also feel like I am still in J-Berg with all the shootings on the streets and the lack of a credible legal system to do anything to protect the public......yeh you gotta love Canada.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Lost Lake » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:15 am

I still maintain my log book. Made my own excel program similar to the printed manuals. Gives me something to do some days. Before my ATPL , I was a little lax (figuring I would never upgrade). Funny how life throws strange curves at you. Transport never questioned my logs (more than enough TT) I also read back through my old logs. Either to reminisce or look up up a name of a pax or friend I flew. No big deal. I look at it as a journal of my flying career. Maybe the kids will want to read it one day.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by wrenches and radios » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:19 am

Has anyone ever had thier personal log audited againt payroll or the aircraft log?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Lost in Saigon » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:40 am

I no longer keep a log book. Air Canada has "this" available for us to access whenever we want.

It doesn't mention Day, Night, IFR, VFR, or Aircraft Registration, but I think it satisfies all the other requirements. If I ever find the need to produce a logbook, I suppose I could make a new one using this information.


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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Cat Driver » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:31 am

What I find interesting about this subject is only one flight instructor bothered to post the correct information on such a basic issue as this.

One has to wonder what other miss information is floating around out there that is accepted as fact when in truth it is nothing more than ignorance of the facts?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Hedley » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:53 am

only one flight instructor bothered to post
You referring to me, Chuck? Although I still hold a class one
instructor rating, my knowledge of the regulations actually
derives from my "school of hard knocks" education that
was so eagerly provided by the government in so many
courtrooms over so many years.

I figure the taxpayer must have several hundred thousand
dollars invested into my "legal education", so the least I can
do, as a public service, is to help out on occasion like this.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Cat Driver » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:09 am

You referring to me, Chuck?
Yes of course I am. :mrgreen:
Although I still hold a class one
instructor rating, my knowledge of the regulations actually
derives from my "school of hard knocks" education that
was so eagerly provided by the government in so many
courtrooms over so many years.
We have a lot in common. :mrgreen:
I figure the taxpayer must have several hundred thousand
dollars invested into my "legal education", so the least I can
do, as a public service, is to help out on occasion like this.
Same here.

What I find so astounding is the meek acceptance of such a waste of taxpayers money by the vast majority of people in aviation.....I guess it just goes to show how little cognitive ability one needs to be a pilot.

Good thing both of us have other skills outside of flying to give us a more balanced perspective on how to figure things out.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Hedley » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:33 am

meek acceptance of such a waste of taxpayers money by the vast majority of people in aviation
That's not so much an aviation thing, as it is a Canadian thing.

If you told a Canadian taxpayer that the government had just
squandered a BILLION dollars - that's a THOUSAND MILLION
dollars - I really doubt he would care, or even be surprised.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by xsbank » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:35 am

Most of us are seriously intimidated by an encounter with our 'law enforcement' people. Their entire purpose is to investigate you to find you guilty of something. They are not there to 'eliminate you from our enquiries' but to catch you and process you. That's how they get paid. Photos of round-ups of Hell's Angels make us feel good, but what if you lived next door to one and they get you too, by mistake?

Somebody posted a video of a prof. telling his class of law students to NEVER say anything to a cop. He had numerous examples but the most telling was that 15 or 20 years after having been convicted of a serious (death penalty) crime, 25% were later (gee thanks) exonerated by DNA evidence. Not much of what they said in their own defense helped them out but it certainly harmed them.

Good thing we stopped hanging people because it could be you! An acknowledgment that the legal system doesn't work a significant proportion of the time.

Having proven it doesn't work all of the time, why would we be the least surprised that it also wastes huge amounts of money? Inefficiency and lack of professional rigour go hand in hand.

So when some meathead comes to your door, or phones you and wants to have an explanation for something you allegedly did, say nothing (if you did do something, get a good lawyer. The legal system is as seriously f*cked as the tax system, which is so complicated you need to hire someone to do it for you). Oh Canada.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:18 am

Xsbank, one does not have to look far to get a feeling for how many in TCCA view their position and the contempt that they show for us.

The following clearly shows that you are at great risk should you be unfortunate enough to get in their sights.

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Cat wrote:
Quote:
I have no need to look in the mirror Prairie Chicken to determine if I was in the wrong, I have already been through the complete process. The findings were TCCA was in the wrong on every count. One thing in the process is yet to be completed, they still owe me the $250,000.00 that they had agreed to pay me if my allegations proved to be true.


What makes you think I was talking about you Cat? You asked a question. I answered it. I was not referring to your case. I know nothing about your case, nor do I wish to. If the shoe fits, fine. If not, that’s fine too.

I’ve said it before. I really don’t think TC care about your rants. I would be very surprised if Merlin Preuss knows or cares about them. I don`t care about your dispute with TC. It`s just sad that your bitterness (& that of some others) is so pervasive here.

The response from this self claimed ex TC type is breath taking considering Prairie chicken is defending abuse of power and serious wrong doing by several of TCCA's top management.

My advise is do not fear them, avoid them at all costs and never ever co-operate with them, You do so at your own risk.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Hornblower » Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:29 am

Hedley wrote:As soon as you log one flight in the new log (assuming you
do 5 takeoffs and landings, etc to satisfy CAR 401) then you
can chuck the old one if you wish. Not many people do, though.
I'll take it a step further; inasmuch as there is no requirement in said regulations regarding the time limits to capture said information, nor a specified format for such record, there really is no enforceable requirement to "keep" a current record. Should there be a difficulty with some "inspection" process by TC, one could meerly write such info on the back of your pack of smokes, produce it at the time of inspection, and walk away.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Hedley » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:52 am

You bring up an interesting point: Statute of Limitations.

There are none on the CARs. You can be charged with a
contravention 10 or 100 years after the alleged occurrence.

Now, the Aviation Enforcement Policy Manual specifies that
after one year, a monetary penalty should not be laid,
but as has been strenously and repeatedly argued in court,
the Aviation Enforcement Policy Manual is simply policy - it
is not binding, and Transport is not obligated to follow it.

I know of a case, years after the alleged occurence, Enforcement
suspended a pilot's commercial licence for FIVE YEARS - they
argued that there was no monetary penalty for a commercial
pilot, to lose his licence for five years (!)

Which brings me to the 100th anniversary of flight in Canada
in Nova Scotia, which I will pointedly NOT be attending. A
particularly unpleasant Enforcement Inspector called me up,
cold, on the phone a couple years ago, and told me to never,
ever fly my Pitts down to Nova Scotia.

Deal.

On the 100th Anniversary of flight in Canada, it would not
surprise me to hear that this particularly unpleasant Enforcement
Inspector from Nova Scotia was going to exhume to bodies of
Alexander Graham Bell and his pilot, to have them charged
with numerous contraventions of the Canadian Aviation
Regulations.

They had no C of R. They had no C of A. They had no annual
inspection, no compass swing, AD's were not complied with,
no interception procedures, no pilot license, no pilot medical.

The list of contraventions by Alexander Graham Bell and his
test pilot are lengthy and serious. Clearly a charge under
CAR 602.01 (reckless and/or negligent) should be considered,
on this, the 100th Anniversary of Flight in Canada.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by MichaelP » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:44 am

:D

You lot are funny!

I'm sorry to read about Hedley's exclusion from Nova Scotia...
Do we all have to live in fear?
Is fear something the media are promoting?

I thought this thread was about logbooks... I keep mine right up to date as I do fly in other countries too and it would be an embarrassment if I was excluded because I could not prove I meet the competency requirements.
I have seven logbooks now and I treasure them.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Cat Driver » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:15 am

I thought this thread was about logbooks... I keep mine right up to date as I do fly in other countries too and it would be an embarrassment if I was excluded because I could not prove I meet the competency requirements.
I have not kept a personal log book for decades.

In 55 years of flying I have never been asked to produce a personal log book, except when I first got my licenses.

No foreign country has asked for my personal log book, the countries who issued me authorizations to fly their airplanes in their airspace only asked for my history and total flying time.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by MichaelP » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:39 am

The Thai DCA require certified copies of my most recent logbook pages.
I would not be able to rent an aeroplane in England without a logbook.
My logbook was required in China.

I wonder what the implications are as far as insurance is concerned?
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