The personal log book thing.

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digits_
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by digits_ »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:32 am
After you have all your licenses and ratings there is no CAR's requirement to keep a log
Don't you need to be able to prove recency/currency?
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Schooner69A
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Schooner69A »

Started keeping a logbook in 1957; latest entry is a few weeks ago.

Kept for personal satisfaction...

:-D
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

digits_ wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:46 am
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:32 am
After you have all your licenses and ratings there is no CAR's requirement to keep a log
Don't you need to be able to prove recency/currency?
A journey log book entry will suffice
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digits_
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by digits_ »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:39 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:46 am
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:32 am
After you have all your licenses and ratings there is no CAR's requirement to keep a log
Don't you need to be able to prove recency/currency?
A journey log book entry will suffice
How would that work if you get ramp checked in plane B but it is your flight in plane A that made you current?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by photofly »

In Canada there's no power for an inspector to ad-hoc ground an airplane absent a pressing and immediate safety concern over airworthiness (bits are falling off) nor are you required to demonstrate you meet recency requirements in the moment. If there are airworthiness or other issues then it's still your choice to take off, albeit you might be on the receiving end of an enforcement action in due course.

The documents you have to carry on board an aircraft are well documented: airworthiness certificate, registration, insurance, aviation document booklet and any other medical certificate that's needed. No need to carry a log book.

Requirement to keep a personal log: it seems fairly clear cut that you have to *keep* a personal log:
401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log ...
And it goes on to say what has to be in the log "in respect of each flight".

I cannot interpret that any other way than to understand you *must* keep a logbook, and it must have a record of every flight you make using the priviliges of your permit, licence or rating.

Now 401.08(1) is not a notified regulation, so there's no monetary penalty for disobeying. That leaves TC the option of judicial (court) action or the threat of withdrawing your licence or permit. Both seem a little heavy handed, but....
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digits_
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:07 pm

Requirement to keep a personal log: it seems fairly clear cut that you have to *keep* a personal log:
401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log ...
And it goes on to say what has to be in the log "in respect of each flight".

I cannot interpret that any other way than to understand you *must* keep a logbook, and it must have a record of every flight you make using the priviliges of your permit, licence or rating.
That's only to acquire a license or show recency. You don't have to do it for every flight. The "each flight" refers to each flight in section 1).
401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder’s name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person

(a) is the holder of the log; or

(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by photofly »

I don't interpret it the way you do. My interpretation is that the purpose of the log is to show recency, and for that purpose, you are required to log every single flight.

But there's never going to be a "right" answer, because there's no enforcement.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:47 pm I don't interpret it the way you do. My interpretation is that the purpose of the log is to show recency, and for that purpose, you are required to log every single flight.

But there's never going to be a "right" answer, because there's no enforcement.
If the goal was to log every flight, then why would they specify you need it for recency? Why not just state you need to log every flight?
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by photofly »

Dunno. If they only want you to log some flights, why not say you must log only as many flights as necessary to be able to demonstrate recency. It's not the only regulation that's worded somewhat ambiguously.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:03 pm Dunno. If they only want you to log some flights, why not say you must log only as many flights as necessary to be able to demonstrate recency.
Isn't that exactly what (1) does? It doesn't specify "only", as you are allowed to log as much as you want.

photofly wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:03 pm It's not the only regulation that's worded somewhat ambiguously.
Maybe, but they rarely add useless info. If they wrote it like this instead of "log everything", it's probably safe to say you don't have to "log everything". I can't find any other reason why they would write it this way and still expect you to log everything, yet don't want to write "log everything".
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by valleyboy »

ut there's never going to be a "right" answer, because there's no enforcement.


Exactly - I have never been asked to produce a log book being ramp checked, License, medical and radio license plus all aircraft and flight information. In Canada the PPC card is not required document but to not piss off inspectors I would produce it eventually if asked :mrgreen: The PPC is not part of your licensing requirements and is actually required of the company to make sure you are current. I know where TC has been advised that a company would continue to fly without current PPC's because transport could not provide rides(before the free lance check pilot days). This goes back to it's perfectly legal to fly an aircraft (licence endorsed over 12500) privately or non revenue without a current PPC.

Commercially a company tracks your time so that satisfies the regs and non commercial, if you own your own aircraft who would care but if you are shelling out money renting the renter might want to see your times and history. IFR currency, well I guess you need to log your IFR time but as for me I could care less. I would never rent and if I had my own aircraft I would file and go. Contrary to belief there is no big fly swatter going to strike you down because you have rubbed up against a minor rule. I knew a guy in Toronto area who files IFR for years and never actually had the rating, never got caught.

There is so much stress and emphasis on over thinking everything. "Thinking on your feet" seems to becoming a lost art, possibly because everyone needs to consult their smart phone or tablet before making a decision. :twisted:

Sure we should follow the rules but picking pepper out of fly sh1t is overboard. If you get that double registered letter in the mail your interpretation of the regs is about to be tested by a far better legal mind than yours. Making safe choices and only have basic working knowledge of the regs will get you through a full life time of flying pleasure.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by digits_ »

valleyboy wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:36 am
ut there's never going to be a "right" answer, because there's no enforcement.


Exactly - I have never been asked to produce a log book being ramp checked,
This topic got dredged up because Fadec *did* get ramp checked and asked about his logbook. Sure, it was in Heathrow, but pilots do tend to fly internationally.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by valleyboy »

I have been ramped in several countries - UK included and aircraft information was all that was ever asked for. The assumption being of you are doing it for a living qualifications and licences should be in order. You are also a foreign pilot and licensing rules might be different. In Canada the first thing they ask for is your license. In my opinion log books are too easy to falsify and really don't provide official proof of currency. It's like the farce of companies certifying a pilot's log book for Transport. I did it but never checked to see if the entries were accurate or even real.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by FLS Beam »

My valued Colleagues;

Upon observing the warm back and forth regarding the logbook aspects - I thought for a moment that I had inadvertently entered into into a litigators blog.

Clearly, there are numerous apps available to both the employer (charged with training and recency requirements) and an individual pilot; commercial or not. These are effective, documentable, printable and carryable.

Ever in flying philosophy, is the redundant aspect. Your e-log, the company e-log, and perhaps even the paper bound traditional log.

Legalities are well covered electronically. And so to step beyond the fervour of this regulatory and lawyerly oneupmanship discourse, could one not observe the pleasurable back up of a book?

Ray Bradbury said it well; “The years go by. The time, it does fly. Every single second is a moment in time that passes. And it seems like nothing - but when you are looking back.........well, it amounts to everything.”

My logbooks are not merely a locus of of paper, paste and ink. My logbooks are not on Google Books, or preserved by the pristinity of digital recollections. They are not dead weight, but live weight. They are imbued with the excitations of flights well executed - and with the crushing sentencing of those which were not. These books on my shelf are my books They are unlike any others, and are ornamented by notes, jottings, and photographs. They are a small rich library of self knowledge. A passionate working life with airplanes. Times of exultant satisfaction, and occasionally, times of self loathing. Spectacular scenes of sky and Earth and airplanes and friends.

Yes, legal conformity is the way of the world. But there is a special magic - a life beyond a merchants humdrum - that is this realm of airplane flying. And the life of it is in my pages.

Stay well, and fly safe for yourself. You are on the best journey possible. Even now.

FLS Beam





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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by YYZSaabGuy »

Just....wow. I think that is one of the better-written posts this site has ever seen. Well done.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by AirFrame »

digits_ wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:55 pmIf the goal was to log every flight, then why would they specify you need it for recency? Why not just state you need to log every flight?
I interpret this as them writing the regulation to specify what they want to get out of it (a record of recency). Practically speaking, as recency is a rolling gate of your last X months, Y landings, etc., showing recency requires that you show the last N flights that show recency, and that could be asked at any time.

I suppose you could, in theory, just keep the last N flights written on a piece of paper that you could show if asked. But on every flight you'd need to erase the one at the top and add a new one to the bottom.
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Re: The personal log book thing.

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This is what I meant. And what resonates still. The fibre of my life, and the timbre of these sounds.

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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by photofly »

Why were you almost jailed in ... isn’t that Dakar? I sense a story...
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by flaps78 »

Good day,

For a private pilot or a commercial pilot that does not plan to fly outside of Canada then it is up to you as to whether or not you keep your log book up to date. In my case I do keep my log book up to date.

While I never carry my log books with me but I do carry a USB stick with a copy of all pertinent personal and professional information as well as the last 5 pages of my log book.. I have had held pilot validations for South Africa, Bermuda, Aruba , the Isle of Man and Australia. The Australia CASA was the only one that wanted to see my log books.Usually a copy of your last PPC was sufficient.

I have been "ramp checked" by TC, in Germany, UK and the non friendly folks of SAFA (France- 8 times) and have never been asked for my pilot's log book.

If you plan to reside in a foreign country and want to obtain a "local" pilot's licence expect to have to provide the CAA and your future employer your log books.

There is a large number of pilots on the international market that are fraudulent (Parker pen time etc)

My only regret regarding pilot log books is that I didn't turn them into journals. When I look at my log books, after 46 yeras of professional flying all I see is a/c registration, type, date, time and destination. There are so many ineresting stories that I have forgotten!

Flaps 78
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Re: The personal log book thing.

Post by tuqi »

digits_ wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:41 amSure, it was in Heathrow, but pilots do tend to fly internationally.
No requirement for a licence holder flying internationally to carry a personal log.

Para 10.3.1 in ICAO Doc 9379 (Manual of Procedures for Establishment and Management of a States Personnel Licensing System)

Recency requirements are easily verified by inspection of company records or pilot logbooks.
Note.— Pilot logbooks are not required to be on board aircraft in international civil aviation operations.


Agree with your interpretation of section 401.08. The words "for the documentation of" would be surplusage were it necessary for all flight experience to be recorded in a personal log.
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