Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

[Pratt X 3]

Sick time policy at my company here in canada is just as bad if not worse then most of the USA for pilots.
Under 2 year = 0 days
Over 2 and under 6 = 1 day
Over 6 and under 16 = 2 days
Over 16 = 3 days

That might be paid sick days. Under the Canadian Labour Code, the employer is not required to pay wages for any time off sick; however, they are required to pay for any benefits as long as the employee continues to pay their share.

Sick Leave
239. (1) Subject to subsection (1.1), no employer shall dismiss, suspend, lay off, demote or discipline an employee because of absence due to illness or injury if
(a) the employee has completed three consecutive months of continuous employment by the employer prior to the absence;
(b) the period of absence does not exceed twelve weeks; and
(c) the employee, if requested in writing by the employer within fifteen days after his return to work, provides the employer with a certificate of a qualified medical practitioner certifying that the employee was incapable of working due to illness or injury for a specified period of time, and that that period of time coincides with the absence of the employee from work.

(1.1) An employer may assign to a different position, with different terms and conditions of employment, any employee who, after an absence due to illness or injury, is unable to perform the work performed by the employee prior to the absence.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs ... -gb:l_XIII

[BTD]

Then shouldn't she have selected flaps 5 instead of flaps up?

Yes, if that was her thought process she should have. I didn't say it was the correct thing to do though.

On every plane I've ever flown, the gear wasn't touched until 'positive rate', and the flaps weren't cleaned up until the stall was recovered.

Interesting. I have already quoted above our procedure on the metro so I won't repeat it.

When I used to fly a PC-12 for another company it was.

8.4.2 LANDING CONFIGURATION (Gear Down, Flaps 40)
1. PCL.............................................................Max Power
2. Angle of attack ............................................Decrease by releasing back pressure
(Simultaneous with step 1)
3. Flaps ...........................................................15
4. Gear ............................................................UP
5. Positive Rate >100knts……………………...Flaps UP
6. Aircraft........................................................Climb to regain any lost altitude.
8.4.3 APPROACH

Most general aviation aircraft I have flown (if I remember correctly, and I may not) the procedure was to raise flaps to the next detent if full flap was extended. Prior to a positive rate.

Asked a friend who flies a DHC-8 (not Q400) what their procedure is for landing config stall. He said after max power they reduce flap to a lower setting prior to positive rate as well. I could see it being different on a Jet with a swept wing.

Interesting stuff.

BTD

[rigpiggy]

The last 4 AC i flew

Stall Max power, flap 17 pos rate gear up
Stall Max power , flaps 1 pos rate gear up
Stall Max power, flaps 15, pos rate gear up
Stall Max Power Flaps 10, pos rate gear up

see a pattern

[Valhalla]

On the Q400, it's max power, and "relax back pressure" at the first sign of stall. "Gear up" comes with positive rate. The f/o selecting flaps up, uncommanded by the PF, likely worsened the situation.

The other thing I noticed from the NTSB simulation video was the fact that the power levers never quite got to "detent" power. This means that the engines were producing slightly less than max contiuous, probably somewhere around 80-90%ish, and they could have "firewalled" the throttles for 125-130% torque. Having said that, the Q400 has so much power in those engines that 80% and a little bit of level attitude would have easily and quickly silenced the stick shaker.

[hawker driver]

It looks like the Pilots in the US are giving the media an ear full

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theworldnewser ... ewser.html

[CP]

Stop Faulting the Flight Crew for the Crash of Colgan 3407!
By Arthur Alan Wolk
The flight crew was blameless for this crash and everyone investigating the crash knows it. It’s just easier to blame the dead crew than to blame the manufacturer who failed to equip this airliner with modern anti-ice equipment. The airplane suffered a tail stall as soon as the flaps 15 setting was selected and the crew did what they were taught – they reversed the procedure and retracted the flaps.

The captain, in spite of the hideous criticism for having nonessential conversations below 10,000 feet, was otherwise professional and all required briefings were carried out.

The aircraft pitch up and airspeed loss has occurred dozens of times in Cessna Caravans just before control is lost in ice. It is a pitch up when the tail loses its ability to provide required down force due to ice contamination. The airspeed bleeds off rapidly and the stick shaker and pusher react. The crew knows that the standard recovery of lowering the nose won’t work so they pull back like they were taught. Lateral control is then lost, followed by pitch control as well.

This aircraft was never certified to fly in freezing drizzle or rain and the crew, like every other airline crew, was misled into believing it was. No one is told that if the conditions are anything other than moderate – clear or rime – the airplane cannot fly. The use of outdated rubber boots, which allow the ice to accumulate before activation, aggravates the situation and just leads to trouble.

It is true that the captain was not the world’s best pilot and the first officer was a kid. Their training stunk and their non-pertinent discussions below 10,000 feet demonstrated poor judgment. However, the transcript from the cockpit voice recorder, read in context, reveals that nothing in their past or their conduct on that flight caused this accident.

No one should confuse legal liability for a crash with blame placed by investigating authorities. Legal responsibility belongs to Continental, Colgan, Pinnacle, and Bombardier and they will pay for all the losses. Blaming this crew is a hideous attempt to hide the truth. Airplanes with deicing boots no longer have a place in commercial aviation.

[chancellor]

Wow! Had moderate ice on an ATR the other day boots worked great.

[Pratt X 3]

Stop Faulting the Flight Crew for the Crash of Colgan 3407! By Arthur Alan Wolk

Found here: http://www.airlaw.com/commentaries.htm

The Wolk Law Firm
1710-12 Locust Street
Philadelphia, PA 19103
215-545-4220 (phone)
215-545-5252 (fax)
airlaw@airlaw.com

[chancellor]

frickin lawyers!

[Four1oh]

Stop Faulting the Flight Crew for the Crash of Colgan 3407!
By Arthur Alan Wolk
The flight crew was blameless for this crash and everyone investigating the crash knows it. It’s just easier to blame the dead crew than to blame the manufacturer who failed to equip this airliner with modern anti-ice equipment. The airplane suffered a tail stall as soon as the flaps 15 setting was selected and the crew did what they were taught – they reversed the procedure and retracted the flaps.

wrong. The crew did not attempt a proper recovery. If you look at the video of the FDR, you see the pilot flying did kick the rudders and actually caused an incipient spin. The FO retracted the flaps to 'up', uncommanded. My next question is, what exactly were the pilots trained in reference to recovering from a stall?

The captain, in spite of the hideous criticism for having nonessential conversations below 10,000 feet, was otherwise professional and all required briefings were carried out.

Agreed, for the most part.

The aircraft pitch up and airspeed loss has occurred dozens of times in Cessna Caravans just before control is lost in ice. It is a pitch up when the tail loses its ability to provide required down force due to ice contamination. The airspeed bleeds off rapidly and the stick shaker and pusher react. The crew knows that the standard recovery of lowering the nose won’t work so they pull back like they were taught. Lateral control is then lost, followed by pitch control as well.

Please tell me the guy that wrote this is just a reporter? I'd understand then. If a pilot wrote this, he needs more groundschool.

This aircraft was never certified to fly in freezing drizzle or rain and the crew, like every other airline crew, was misled into believing it was. No one is told that if the conditions are anything other than moderate – clear or rime – the airplane cannot fly. The use of outdated rubber boots, which allow the ice to accumulate before activation, aggravates the situation and just leads to trouble.

riight... and all other airplanes are certified in freezing rain or severe icing?

It is true that the captain was not the world’s best pilot and the first officer was a kid. Their training stunk and their non-pertinent discussions below 10,000 feet demonstrated poor judgment. However, the transcript from the cockpit voice recorder, read in context, reveals that nothing in their past or their conduct on that flight caused this accident.

so first they had the proper training, and now they don't? What's the dealio here?

No one should confuse legal liability for a crash with blame placed by investigating authorities. Legal responsibility belongs to Continental, Colgan, Pinnacle, and Bombardier and they will pay for all the losses. Blaming this crew is a hideous attempt to hide the truth. Airplanes with deicing boots no longer have a place in commercial aviation.

I blame Colgan, AND the pilots, AND the FAA here.

[2.5milefinal]

Airplanes with deicing boots no longer have a place in commercial aviation.

The only people/pilots that make statements like this are pilot/pilots who do not know how that equipment works and how and when to use it.

[Pratt X 3]

Please tell me the guy that wrote this is just a reporter? I'd understand then. If a pilot wrote this, he needs more groundschool.

Arthur Alan Wolk is the founding partner of The Wolk Law Firm in Philadelphia. For more than 35 years, The Wolk Law Firm has concentrated its practice in the area of aviation law, with Arthur personally generating verdicts and settlements of nearly $1 billion during the last decade alone. He is known for obtaining and on appeal, holding, the largest verdicts for each type of air accident claim in recent aviation history.
As a result of his seasoned courtroom skills, aviation industry savvy and technical aircraft knowledge, Arthur has been named to the steering committees of every major airline disaster in which The Wolk Law Firm has represented victims.
Arthur's personal aviation experience is extensive as well. He has been a pilot for more than 30 years and holds the Federal Aviation Administration's highest pilot's certificate - Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) - for multi-engine land and sea aircraft, and single-engine land and sea airplanes. He is also one of a handful of pilots holding a Letter of Authorization for the F9F-2 Panther jet fighter. Arthur has thousands of hours of flight experience and has also flown in air shows throughout the country. He was selected for the Flight of the Grumman Cats as Cat 5 in recognition of his flying skill, a position he held for 11 years. The FAA consistently conferred a low level aerobatic and formation air show waiver based on Arthur's performance as a pilot.

Found here: http://www.airlaw.com/attorneys.htm

[Four1oh]

Figures.

[Snagmaster E]

Yeah well pilots, not lawyers, know that you can't maintain level flight with gear, flaps, and power at or near flight idle, but what the hell do I know?

Sure, that 777 must go to flight idle in cruise, along with the 172 on a cross-country. Even balloons need to give a shot of heat every now and then.

[Canoehead]

Please tell me the guy that wrote this is just a reporter? I'd understand then. If a pilot wrote this, he needs more groundschool.

Arthur Alan Wolk is the founding partner of The Wolk Law Firm in Philadelphia. For more than 35 years, The Wolk Law Firm has concentrated its practice in the area of aviation law, with Arthur personally generating verdicts and settlements of nearly $1 billion during the last decade alone. He is known for obtaining and on appeal, holding, the largest verdicts for each type of air accident claim in recent aviation history.
As a result of his seasoned courtroom skills, aviation industry savvy and technical aircraft knowledge, Arthur has been named to the steering committees of every major airline disaster in which The Wolk Law Firm has represented victims.
Arthur's personal aviation experience is extensive as well. He has been a pilot for more than 30 years and holds the Federal Aviation Administration's highest pilot's certificate - Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) - for multi-engine land and sea aircraft, and single-engine land and sea airplanes. He is also one of a handful of pilots holding a Letter of Authorization for the F9F-2 Panther jet fighter. Arthur has thousands of hours of flight experience and has also flown in air shows throughout the country. He was selected for the Flight of the Grumman Cats as Cat 5 in recognition of his flying skill, a position he held for 11 years. The FAA consistently conferred a low level aerobatic and formation air show waiver based on Arthur's performance as a pilot.

Found here: http://www.airlaw.com/attorneys.htm

I wouldn't trust this dork with my lawnmower.

Mr. Wolk and Mr. Hall should go into business together. Why make two law-firms look incompetent?

Ambulance chasing at its utmost.

[fortis risk]

This is the same guy who has been using propaganda to damage the reputation of the Caravan. He has launched a smear campaign against the aircraft to help his class action suit against cessna. His propaganda has been so prolific that pilots have often repeated it to others not realizing they do this leaches bidding.

[Canoehead]

From the same thread on the AEF site.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/nyreg ... ml?_r=1&hp


Interesting read...

[Rudy]

111 pages? Damn, I haven't said that much to my copilot in the last 2 years.
It's kind of ghouly for this stuff to be public.

[MrWings]

It's kind of ghouly for this stuff to be public.

Agreed.

Cannot the public trust the accident investigation report instead of being privy to all the private details? Do we get access to the autopsy photos next?

[Sidebar]

We're already part-way there, after a court challenge successfully brought the release of the ATC transcripts for the Morningstar crash in Wpg several years ago.

I don't think that's correct. I was here during that, and while there were quotes from the ATC freqs published in the papers, it was sourced from some website or someone with a scanner. I'm pretty sure it wasn't from a transcript released by NavCan or TSB under any sort of court order.