Interesting quotes from "Sully"

[B-rad]

well this thread is starting to loose its appeal.

Meatservo hits it off with good reactions from everyone and now the rest have to puff up their chest and write an equally long winded self patting on the back how much more of a true pilot they are. Ok, I get it, you know morse code, Congratufuckinlations. You can group me into that 98% that your typing was wasted on because I don`t GARA. I`m sick of hearing you guys tear down new age Pilots and cutting us short on the efforts we put in. There may be a bunch of guys who aren't capable of building a time machine like ol`FogDucker but how about passing some respect back down to the guys out there who give it all they got. As mentioned, we don't NEED to build a spark gap transmitter these days and we are victims of circumstance rather then being lazy good for nothing "meatsticks". We DO learn what we NEED to do the job and if I was needed to build a spark gap transmitter I would fucking learn it you can be sure. If I was needing to learn celestial navigation, I would know it. We face new obstacles these days and still put in equal effort to earn our position. I know I won't be making the same money as the legacy times and I know the public doesn't have the same respect for new age Pilots, but I would hope the "Mentors" we have to guide us along the way would be a little more insightful then telling me how much I don't know and how we are constantly dumbing down our industry. Cuz reality is, a fish rots from the head down and you are the trail blazers who paths we are following. I'm well aware of the problem this career path holds for me but you can be sure I do my best to make it enjoyable for everyone I'm going to share it with.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

We face new obstacles these days and still put in equal effort to earn our position.

I believe you are taking this stuff too personally B-rad, most of these posts are just guys letting off steam because we are as fed up with the way the industry is going as you new people.

Sure you have new obstacles but the airplanes are easier to fly and new technology sure has made flying easier and it should be safer.

How come you didn't make it to the airport last week?

[Meatservo]

There is a "Merchant Navy Officer's Guild" or its equivalent in almost every country. The sailors of course, have their own unions as well. Only an idiot could fail to draw a parallel between an officer on a civilian ship and a pilot on the flight deck of a civilian aircraft. Why do we not have such an association? I am NOT talking about a trade union. I am talking about mandatory membership in an association that sets benchmarks for training, skill level, rank, and pay levels. Employers would be forced to employ under these guidelines. Pilots would be forced to adhere to the professional standards of this organization. Flying Schools would be forced to teach to this standard. Flying lessons would cost accordingly. "Private" and "commercial" flying would be as separate as they are for sea officers, i.e, you can take your boater's safety course and muck around in a motorboat if you like, but if you want a job on the bridge of a ship, you become a cadet at a merchant seaman's academy, and achieve their qualifications. Flying lessons would be expensive. Stupid or less motivated candidates would fail. There would be fewer pilots. Wages would be higher. Instructors would be super-qualified and highly paid. A lot of people would have a problem with this. I think this would have to be the way to go if we wanted to elevate our trade to a "profession". They have this in the marine transportation industry. Why don't we have it here?

B-rad has a point in that we don't need to know how to build spark-gap transmitters anymore. But young people do seem to me to be less capable on the whole than they used to be. Now, maybe that's just a phase people go through as they age, believing the quality of younger people is diminishing. And it's also true that the environment new pilots are forced to operate in was created by those who went before. It's like a chicken and egg paradox. The "golden age" guys didn't need to fight for respect because they got it anyway. The guys after them had to work harder to get it, and now the new guys find it almost impossible to get. You COULD still get a job flying a twin otter, living in a tent for months, keeping a jaded eye on every little change in the weather, hand-flying all day, loading and unloading fuel drums and rock samples, doing your own flight planning, watching fuel on a minute-to- minute basis, gaining knowledge as the years go by about open leads and multi-year pan ice and currents and beaches and sand bars and eskers and mountain waves and overflow and loon shit and ocean swells and tides and NDB approaches and homemade GNS ones too, and how to fix stuff, and not get caught with your pants down, and at the end of it all you've earned LESS respect and LESS pay than the other guys who are now flying around under full auto sucking cappuccino in the flight levels.( Don't tell me your job is just as hard because it fucking ISN'T. ) But I think nowadays the smart guy is the one who gets onto the big plastic (I would have said big iron but it doesn't sound right anymore) as soon as possible and hopefully gets into management as soon as he can after that so he can get down to patting his own back and taking weekends off along with the other office guys, which is where the REAL money is.

I like to rant. How'dya like THAT run-on sentence?

[CanadianEh]

It's funny that you guys are mentioning all this stuff about how Aviation no longer attracts the best and the brightest. I believe this is true to a certain extent. I'm finishing up High School and I currently have a 90% average going into aviation and so far everyone I've told (who knows anything about the industry) thinks I'm crazy. They tell me that with my marks I should be going into something else. The thing that bothers me the most about aviation is the role that luck plays. Some are getting a right seat job at Jazz right out of school while others get the same job much later and with much more experience. Low wages is also a concern of mine, but it's really way to soon for me to be worrying about that.

At the end of the day, all I can really do is keep my eye on the prize, do the best I can and hope I get a little help from lady luck. I think Sully did a real service to all present and future pilots by voicing his concern about the state of the aviation industry.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Love your T-shirt if you are a girl lets go out some night.

[Barkaie]

a different view of all this.. our entire society, is switching into "experts", back in the day you go to a doctor and he would deal with your problem, today no two doctors can cure the same disease, you are always sent to a specialist. so no, I wasn't trained on the astro compass or how to rebuild the pt6.. but you can say we are going with the trend and "specializing" on more need to know basis just because the machines are getting more complex and there is more detail to learn. the planes are safer, more efficient etc etc.. Its not my fault I was born into this era, and I am gaining as much info from my mentors and instructors about how they are flying, but also adapting myself to what companies are needing from pilots today.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The complexity of the machines today compared to the piston pounding era is quite different.

As an example we can compare what a crew had to know and what they had to do to fly a DC6 compared to an Airbus or a Boeing Jet is vastly different and requires totally different training to fly them.

I personally think the old piston pounders were more difficult to learn to fly and for sure it was more work.

[bezerker]

I agree with most of the comments posted about aviation becoming easier. But, some facts may be exagerated though (back when I was a kid, we had to walk 20 miles uphill...).

I think hand bombing high speed aircraft went out of style a long, long time ago.

In 1958 Sperry SP-30 and Bendix PB-20, both offered either three-axis autostabilization, full three-axis control with heading, height and speed lock or coupling to V.O.R. and ILS for navigation and approach. The first airline autolandings began in 1965.

There has been a lot of coffee sipping in airline cockpits for many years now.

If you old guys are talking about the times before that, well.....

[x-wind]

Meat, really like what you wrote.

But why the .. does everyone with experience and intelligence give up.

"But I think nowadays the smart guy is the one who gets onto the big plastic (I would have said big iron but it doesn't sound right anymore) as soon as possible and hopefully gets into management as soon as he can after that so he can get down to patting his own back and taking weekends off along with the other office guys, which is where the REAL money is."

This doesn't actually point out a give up attitude, but between the lines there's some disgust.

Pretty sad with your ideals.... Keep ranting, fairly inspiring. Perhaps some will age before our time, still motivate, and go about making some changes.

I'd throw money at someone like you dedicated to getting some sort of union going.


.....Thanks for maybe a bit of a reality check bezerker

[Dockjock]

Hilarious rants.
We are responsible for safety, comfort, and economy of operations. On time if possible, please.
The tools are different but hey we don't use dot-matrix printers anymore do we? Oh, right.....

[FamilyGuy]

All well and good but how many of you ole timers can re-program the FMS WHILE texting you GF about dinner plans and reading ACARS???? Huh..what's a text message? Kidding of course.

Nice posts but METARS and TAF's? FL320? The story lost all credibility when you mixed new with old. SA's and FL310 baby!

[Meatservo]

Berzerker, this isn't really what I'm talking about, and I think you realise that. I think I'm done here. I'm not actually all that old, and I wanted to believe being a pilot was a good use of a man's life, even a thinking man like myself. I have met all kinds of intelligent men and women who believed the same thing. I deliberately concentrated on learning to do things the hard way. I wasted a lot of time fucking around in Otters and Twin Otters and reading books about hero pilots and sailors and wishing I could be like them someday, and now I am qualified for exactly the same job in mainstream aviation as someone who got their pilots' license four years ago. I no longer believe I made the right choice. Being a pilot or a "professional navigator" which is really what the term "pilot" means ( I might as well be joking), is no longer a "profession" by the strictest definition of the word.

The reason nobody tries to start a professional organisation is because there is no way anyone could integrate such a thing into Transport Canada and their American masters' present system, and because there are probably no pilots who aren't currently too busy trying to eke out a lower middle class existence to bother. I just noticed Captain Sullenberger's comments were received with some shock by the media today, when he and everybody else have been conscious of this problem for years. Who couldn't have seen this coming?

I am disgusted, X-wind. I'm not interested in a union. I'm interested in a professional organisation that can help us get our collective pride back. I'm tired of watching the world get ruined by "deputy chief senior executive vice president"-type people who produce nothing and spend their time making paperwork and rewarding themselves and undermining the people who create their reason for being in the first place. Someday when the economy has totally disintegrated, maybe the people who can actually MAKE or DO something that takes some commitment and brains will earn a little respect once again. In the meantime, I think I will advise young people to become "businessmen".

[Meatservo]

Hilarious rants.
We are responsible for safety, comfort, and economy of operations. On time if possible, please.
The tools are different but hey we don't use dot-matrix printers anymore do we? Oh, right.....

Too bad the pay is different too. When you can eat "responsibility" I'll be proud to accept it.

[FamilyGuy]

Meat, ain't payback a bitch. Seriously, all the nerds over the decades who became accountants or lawyers and now airline CEO's and CFO's are now extracting their vengence upon you lofty fucks who actually enjoy the view from the office. Shame on you all.....

Actually though it does make business sense. Highly paid highly skilled HUMAN workers are expensive$$$. Capitalism demands that those salaries be reduced - usually hidden behind public and shareholder friendly technological expenses in the name of "safety". Capital expenses in equipment are usually a one time shot - maybe the occasional software upgrade. Equipment never gets sick, never takes holidays and most importantly never says NO - we can't fly today in this weather etc.

Eventually, capitalism will reduce us all to McJobs. I wonder how we will afford to use their services once we all make minimum wage? How will they continue to make a profit? Didn't Henry Ford have a saying about this................

[B-rad]

Just watched The National and saw this story being reported on. Pretty much the same thing as you read in the first few posts then they ended it by showing the starting wage at US airways $26,000 and Air Canada $37,000. They basically were saying that without decent pay, they are attracting 300 hour Pilots rather then the 3000 hours needed when they first went for interviews and this is a huge safety concern for passengers.

As much as it's good to see this getting a little attention, I don't think it is going to do anything to make changes. I can see this topic not really being in the minds of passengers once it stops getting the media attention if they even care much about it to begin with. Do we expect people to demonstrate for higher wages for us? What do you think is an achievable goal out of this?

[. .]

Just watched The National and saw this story being reported on. Pretty much the same thing as you read in the first few posts then they ended it by showing the starting wage at US airways $26,000 and Air Canada $37,000. They basically were saying that without decent pay, they are attracting 300 hour Pilots rather then the 3000 hours needed when they first went for interviews and this is a huge safety concern for passengers.

As much as it's good to see this getting a little attention, I don't think it is going to do anything to make changes. I can see this topic not really being in the minds of passengers once it stops getting the media attention if they even care much about it to begin with. Do we expect people to demonstrate for higher wages for us? What do you think is an achievable goal out of this?

I don't expect the people to take up arms and storm parliament for hire pilot wages. It would sure be nice not to hear people talking about greedy pilots bankrupting companies.

From top to bottom, you'd be very hard pressed to find an aviation job out there today that didn't pay better 20 years ago. That to me is absolutely insane. I'm not talking in inflated dollars either.

[CanadianEh]

Love your T-shirt if you are a girl lets go out some night.

Haha, no I'm a guy.. but pm me if you want a hook up and you're in YOW.

[Driving Rain]

Starting wages US Airways $26,000 Air Canada $37,000 I'm assuming they didn't convert.
Air Canada's starting wage would be $29,520 US dollars

- Pilots took a 30 per cent pay-rate cut on the Embraer aircraft, 20 per cent on A320 aircraft, and a 15 per cent on all other aircraft. - By comparison, Robert Milton took a 13.5 per cent salary reduction from 2002-2005. During the same period, Milton's annual compensation grew by 72 per cent, and nearly doubled (+93 per cent) from 2004 to 2005.

[Meatservo]

Family guy, we are watching a weird live version of "office space" and "idiocracy" unfolding before our very eyes. I used to work for a commuter airline in a large city and had lots of contact with the passengers and had the occasion to hear about the years of trials involved in trying to get an office with a view.

It actually won't be too long before they invent computers that are better at everything than people are, and we'll become a race of farmers and stockholders and a whole lot of unemployed. I'm almost excited about it.

[North Shore]

Thing is, Meat, when you go to a place that does have high training costs, and a professional guild (try the UK - not sure if membership in the GAPAN is mandated, tho) then they still bitch about terms and conditions - take a look at the Pprune forums for that.
What I think it is, in society, is a lack of appreciation for things that are hard to do. Family Guy mentions nerds - I get a mental picture of a mid '60s NASA engineer, complete with a slide rule, pocket protector, and horn-rimmed glasses..Ha ha ha.. but those guys put men on the moon, f'r fcuk's sake! It's the people who could never even dream of doing that, because they don't have the smarts, imagination or work ethic to succeed at it, that became the middle-management type, and decided to cut everyone else down to their mediocre size by driving salaries down. I suspect the same is true in many other fields of work. Ever look at the salary for Drs and nurses vs Hospital administrators? I'd be willing to bet that over at 'ShipCanada' the deep-sea skippers complain about what the management at their companies make for chasing paper around their desks and attending meetings..
To go back to aviation, though, we are, in a sense, our own worst enemies. Visit me at work one day, and chances are, I'll be sitting around waiting for the phone to ring for a dispatch. You don't see the 2 minute turns with full loads at 150' in 30kts in 1/2mile vis. Visit a 747-400 at fl360, and they're sitting there, drinking coffee, reading the paper waiting for the next checkpoint to arrive. When the sh!t hits the fan, there's a flurry of activity, and the problem gets resolved (or not )and then it's back to sitting around. Mr. Desk-bound-paper-pusher never sees that side of it; compared to his busy-at-the desk-all-day work life, we do an easy job, and thus don't deserve the "large" salaries we get paid.

ETA: Could you do anything else, though? I sit and think all of the time about how I'd like to get out of the game, and into something that's safer, gives me more regular time at home with Mrs and the littl'uns, and holidays in the summer, and it always comes down to those damn aeroplanes - the smell, feel, view, excitment, romance etc... the little boy in me can't resist.