Has anyone noticed that there has been alot of crashes as of late?
When I started my career about five years ago it wasn't uncommon to have a Navajo Captain with anywhere 2000 - 3000 + hours. Or even a King Air 100 Captain with 5000 hours. In the past few years the major carriers have had some retirements and expansion, pulling from these pools. Is this leaving a large gap in the skills of young pilots?
Transport Canada is trying to be proactive about a potential pilot shortage or gap in the future of Canadian aviation. They have created a Multi Crew Licience. Have they had pressure from the airlines to do this? What do you think is going to happen in the future with pilots that have never had to make decisions as PIC, when they get into the left seat?
Pitts
Alot of plane crashes?
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It's the Pitts
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Re: Alot of plane crashes?
I am afraid I am not googly enhanced, but someone who is might want to look at the auto accidents in canada for the last year..fatalities, costs, injuries.
We are so used to car accidents that they seldom make the news, but the media jumps on virtually every aircraft accident.
Sorry for the hijack...not sure. I have felt that way for awhile, but I have absolutely no stats to back up my opinion. Just a gut feeling from what I see is a decline in the quality of the new CPLs and their rapid advancement to complicated machines. The issue of no PIC time has come up with some of the European carriers, and they have ultimately tried different strategies and backed away from it in some cases. There simply is no way to substitute training for experience. I did notice , however, that it has been mentioned as a concern to TC, so they may have some stats and thoughts on it..perhaps one of our TC lurkers here can shed some light on their thoughts.
We are so used to car accidents that they seldom make the news, but the media jumps on virtually every aircraft accident.
Sorry for the hijack...not sure. I have felt that way for awhile, but I have absolutely no stats to back up my opinion. Just a gut feeling from what I see is a decline in the quality of the new CPLs and their rapid advancement to complicated machines. The issue of no PIC time has come up with some of the European carriers, and they have ultimately tried different strategies and backed away from it in some cases. There simply is no way to substitute training for experience. I did notice , however, that it has been mentioned as a concern to TC, so they may have some stats and thoughts on it..perhaps one of our TC lurkers here can shed some light on their thoughts.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
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Prairie Chicken
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Re: Alot of plane crashes?
The Multi-Crew Pilot Licence (MPL) is a plan to take persons selected by an airline (potential pilots) from ab initio students with 0 hours or flight training to right seat of an airliner with next to no PIC time. It’s a totally new concept with an extremely heavily basis in sim training. You reach the right seat of heavy airliners with very few hours of actual flight time. As I understand it, it’s experimental & is being tested in a few countries, Canada being one of the first.
An excerpt from a CASS presentation:
Work is underway to develop a performance-based regulatory framework that will permit Canada to introduce a new internationally recognized pilot licence, the Multi-Crew Pilot Licence. Only Approved Training Organizations certified by Transport Canada will be authorized to conduct training programs leading towards the issuance of a Canadian MPL.
Unlike traditional approaches to pilot training, Multi-Crew Pilot Licence training is a highly structured competency-based program specifically targeted towards developing the skill, knowledge, and attitudinal competencies necessary to become an airline co-pilot. These standards will be responsive to industry’s efforts to attain higher standards of excellence through innovation.
See http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp185/1-08/Operations.htm#civil-pilot for more details. I guarantee this is a controversial issue.
An excerpt from a CASS presentation:
Work is underway to develop a performance-based regulatory framework that will permit Canada to introduce a new internationally recognized pilot licence, the Multi-Crew Pilot Licence. Only Approved Training Organizations certified by Transport Canada will be authorized to conduct training programs leading towards the issuance of a Canadian MPL.
Unlike traditional approaches to pilot training, Multi-Crew Pilot Licence training is a highly structured competency-based program specifically targeted towards developing the skill, knowledge, and attitudinal competencies necessary to become an airline co-pilot. These standards will be responsive to industry’s efforts to attain higher standards of excellence through innovation.
See http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp185/1-08/Operations.htm#civil-pilot for more details. I guarantee this is a controversial issue.
Prairie Chicken
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
PC
Thanks for the imput. Do I understand correctly then, that these pilots will be career co-pilots?
If that is correct, then who is ultimately going to fill the left seats? I would think that after a few years the unionsare going to be under pressure to ensure upgrading.
Would like to hear your personal thoughts on this...good for discussion.
Thanks for the imput. Do I understand correctly then, that these pilots will be career co-pilots?
If that is correct, then who is ultimately going to fill the left seats? I would think that after a few years the unionsare going to be under pressure to ensure upgrading.
Would like to hear your personal thoughts on this...good for discussion.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
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Investigator
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Re: Alot of plane crashes?
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Last edited by Investigator on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
not career, but very long term
they will not have the qualifactions to rent a 172 when they're done though...just fly a jet
they will not have the qualifactions to rent a 172 when they're done though...just fly a jet
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
not career, but very long term
On what basis are you making that claim? Not disputing it, but I would like to know why you believe that to be the case.
The pasted document, is like pasted documents from any govt. Full of meaningful and serious sounding phrases, but really a little short on concrete details. Would be nice if anyone has anything more detailed to show how they actually plan to train to meet those lofty goals.
From what I see here, not only can they not fly a 172, but they can only be a subordinate crew member in a jet..
Does this mean then, that wages for FO's will go down down down. If they are pretty much captive, I cant see them having a choice other than quitting.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
I agree. There have been an unusual spike in the number of accidents and it seems pilot error has been a major factor in almost all of them.
The pilot market is over and it's beginning to be another owners market (3000hr Navajo drivers etc.)
Required experience is again on the rise and this will have an effect further down the line reqarding future accidents.
The cycle continues. Hey it's a good time to start training again. You just might be trained in time for the next pilot market.
The pilot market is over and it's beginning to be another owners market (3000hr Navajo drivers etc.)
Required experience is again on the rise and this will have an effect further down the line reqarding future accidents.
The cycle continues. Hey it's a good time to start training again. You just might be trained in time for the next pilot market.
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
The Russians had a program similar to this. (Many years ago...) A guy I flew with described it to me.
A pilot did a small amount of flying training in a multi-engine training aircraft (15 hours, I think he said), got a licence of some kind, and then went into the cockpit of heavy jets, if you demonstrated competency, skills, and aptitude. That's all he did for "a long time". So after a few years, that's all they could do.
He eventually got upgraded to Captain, and flew all his life till coming to Canada, in large Aeroflot planes.
...dunno if they have a pilot union at Aeroflot...
A pilot did a small amount of flying training in a multi-engine training aircraft (15 hours, I think he said), got a licence of some kind, and then went into the cockpit of heavy jets, if you demonstrated competency, skills, and aptitude. That's all he did for "a long time". So after a few years, that's all they could do.
He eventually got upgraded to Captain, and flew all his life till coming to Canada, in large Aeroflot planes.
...dunno if they have a pilot union at Aeroflot...
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pilotman15
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Re: Alot of plane crashes?
swordfish wrote:The Russians had a program similar to this. (Many years ago...) A guy I flew with described it to me.
A pilot did a small amount of flying training in a multi-engine training aircraft (15 hours, I think he said), got a licence of some kind, and then went into the cockpit of heavy jets, if you demonstrated competency, skills, and aptitude. That's all he did for "a long time". So after a few years, that's all they could do.
He eventually got upgraded to Captain, and flew all his life till coming to Canada, in large Aeroflot planes.
...dunno if they have a pilot union at Aeroflot...
Hmmm, sounds pretty similar to Maylan.
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VikVaughan
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Re: Alot of plane crashes?
Q. Did the introduction of the Multi-crew Pilot Licence result from a need to deal with the projected shortage in qualified airline pilots in different parts of the world?
No, that would be an inaccurate assumption. Long before anyone foresaw the current shortages in qualified pilots, the aviation community recognized that the training and licensing standards in use at the time did not adequately account for the enormous advancements in technology and learning methodologies, along with the increased complexities of pilot work environments. It was for those reasons that ICAO commissioned a review, which led to the creation of a new licensing structure and improved standards that reflect today’s realities. Transport Canada endorses those changes and is taking action that will align our regulatory framework more closely with ICAO’s newly revised standards.
Q. What will be the privileges attached to the Canadian MPL?
The holder of a Canadian MPL will be able to carry out the duties and responsibilities of a co-pilot operating a multi-engine, turbine powered, transport category aeroplane, which is certificated to be operated by two or more pilots, under either VFR or IFR conditions. The privilege to do so is restricted to those aeroplanes for which that person holds a type rating on their licence.
Q. Under what circumstances will an MPL holder be permitted to operate as pilot-in-command?
The holder of an MPL will be unable to fly outside of the restrictions imposed on the MPL privileges, unless that person additionally holds one of the traditional pilot licences, ratings, or permit. In order to obtain a Recreational Pilot Permit-Aeroplane, a Private Pilot Licence, a Commercial Pilot Licence, or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, an MPL holder will have to meet the “bridging” experience, knowledge, and skill requirements of that licence, rating or permit. These requirements have been identified through a gap/bridge analysis conducted in appreciation of the predetermined training requirements for an MPL program as expressed in the proposed new regulatory framework.
Q. Going through an MPL training program that may extend over a 15-month period must be extremely expensive. Who’s going to be paying for this?
MPL training is indeed an expensive proposition. ATOs offering MPL training are probably dependant upon acquiring client air carriers who enter into a pilot provisioning contract with the training provider. As such, it is anticipated that the client operator will then enter into some form of an employment agreement with the trainee to ensure the operator receives full value from their investment.
Q. How does Transport Canada intend to ensure that this new licensing structure is safe?
Transport Canada has a duty of care to ensure that any change is introduced safely. What’s important to realize is that the Canadian MPL implementation requirements are even more rigorous than anything we’ve ever introduced before. No other current training program, which is designed to satisfy the pre-requisites for the issuance of a pilot licence, comes even close to meeting the structured system-designed training requirements considered essential for an MPL program. Furthermore Transport Canada’s intended pre-certification standards for training institutions planning to offer such programs are going to be exacting and the oversight of the mandated proof-of-concept trial period will indeed be extremely thorough. Any attempt to simply meet minimum standards will represent a clear indication that the training entity does not possess a true outcomes-focused quality system and, as a consequence, does not meet the requirements of an ATO certificate holder.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/MPL/faq.htm
No, that would be an inaccurate assumption. Long before anyone foresaw the current shortages in qualified pilots, the aviation community recognized that the training and licensing standards in use at the time did not adequately account for the enormous advancements in technology and learning methodologies, along with the increased complexities of pilot work environments. It was for those reasons that ICAO commissioned a review, which led to the creation of a new licensing structure and improved standards that reflect today’s realities. Transport Canada endorses those changes and is taking action that will align our regulatory framework more closely with ICAO’s newly revised standards.
Q. What will be the privileges attached to the Canadian MPL?
The holder of a Canadian MPL will be able to carry out the duties and responsibilities of a co-pilot operating a multi-engine, turbine powered, transport category aeroplane, which is certificated to be operated by two or more pilots, under either VFR or IFR conditions. The privilege to do so is restricted to those aeroplanes for which that person holds a type rating on their licence.
Q. Under what circumstances will an MPL holder be permitted to operate as pilot-in-command?
The holder of an MPL will be unable to fly outside of the restrictions imposed on the MPL privileges, unless that person additionally holds one of the traditional pilot licences, ratings, or permit. In order to obtain a Recreational Pilot Permit-Aeroplane, a Private Pilot Licence, a Commercial Pilot Licence, or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, an MPL holder will have to meet the “bridging” experience, knowledge, and skill requirements of that licence, rating or permit. These requirements have been identified through a gap/bridge analysis conducted in appreciation of the predetermined training requirements for an MPL program as expressed in the proposed new regulatory framework.
Q. Going through an MPL training program that may extend over a 15-month period must be extremely expensive. Who’s going to be paying for this?
MPL training is indeed an expensive proposition. ATOs offering MPL training are probably dependant upon acquiring client air carriers who enter into a pilot provisioning contract with the training provider. As such, it is anticipated that the client operator will then enter into some form of an employment agreement with the trainee to ensure the operator receives full value from their investment.
Q. How does Transport Canada intend to ensure that this new licensing structure is safe?
Transport Canada has a duty of care to ensure that any change is introduced safely. What’s important to realize is that the Canadian MPL implementation requirements are even more rigorous than anything we’ve ever introduced before. No other current training program, which is designed to satisfy the pre-requisites for the issuance of a pilot licence, comes even close to meeting the structured system-designed training requirements considered essential for an MPL program. Furthermore Transport Canada’s intended pre-certification standards for training institutions planning to offer such programs are going to be exacting and the oversight of the mandated proof-of-concept trial period will indeed be extremely thorough. Any attempt to simply meet minimum standards will represent a clear indication that the training entity does not possess a true outcomes-focused quality system and, as a consequence, does not meet the requirements of an ATO certificate holder.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/MPL/faq.htm
-VV
Jablonski... Noooooooooooooo!
Jablonski... Noooooooooooooo!
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
5000 hours flying a Ho probably means you are broke. I think the lower experience levels are more due to industry wages. No one wants to stay in the entry level jobs.
No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced.
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
trey kule wrote:I am afraid I am not googly enhanced, but someone who is might want to look at the auto accidents in canada for the last year..fatalities, costs, injuries.
We are so used to car accidents that they seldom make the news, but the media jumps on virtually every aircraft accident.
Sorry for the hijack...not sure. I have felt that way for awhile, but I have absolutely no stats to back up my opinion. Just a gut feeling from what I see is a decline in the quality of the new CPLs and their rapid advancement to complicated machines. The issue of no PIC time has come up with some of the European carriers, and they have ultimately tried different strategies and backed away from it in some cases. There simply is no way to substitute training for experience. I did notice , however, that it has been mentioned as a concern to TC, so they may have some stats and thoughts on it..perhaps one of our TC lurkers here can shed some light on their thoughts.
The media jumps on anything regarding airplanes.
If an airplanes engines didn't start and caused a delay, they would jump on it and say that a terrorist has put a turban in the Combustion Chamber just to make headlines.
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
The 2008 preliminary stats are up on the TSB website. Here is the summary:
2008 Highlights
Aviation occurrences
Canadian-registered aircraft, other than ultralights, were involved in 251 reported accidents in 2008, a 12% decrease from the 2007 total of 284, and a 7% decrease from the 2003-2007 average of 270. The 2008 estimate of flying activity is 4,432,000 hours, yielding an accident rate of 5.7 accidents per 100,000 flying hours, down from both the 2007 rate and the five-year rate of 6.7. Canadian-registered aircraft, other than ultralights, were involved in 24 fatal occurrences with 49 fatalities in 2008, compared to the 33 fatal occurrences with 49 fatalities in 2007 and to the five year average of 31 fatal occurrences with 49 fatalities. A total of 8 fatal occurrences involved commercial aircraft (3 aeroplanes and 5 helicopters), and 13 fatal occurrences involved privately operated aircraft (10 aeroplanes and 3 helicopters). The number of accidents involving ultralights decreased to 29 in 2008 from 30 in 2007, and the number of fatal accidents increased to 12 in 2008 from 5 in 2007.
In 2008, a total of 911 incidents were reported in accordance with the TSB mandatory reporting requirements. This is a 1% increase from the 2007 total of 895 and a 6% increase from the five year average of 857.
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/aviation ... /index.asp
2008 Highlights
Aviation occurrences
Canadian-registered aircraft, other than ultralights, were involved in 251 reported accidents in 2008, a 12% decrease from the 2007 total of 284, and a 7% decrease from the 2003-2007 average of 270. The 2008 estimate of flying activity is 4,432,000 hours, yielding an accident rate of 5.7 accidents per 100,000 flying hours, down from both the 2007 rate and the five-year rate of 6.7. Canadian-registered aircraft, other than ultralights, were involved in 24 fatal occurrences with 49 fatalities in 2008, compared to the 33 fatal occurrences with 49 fatalities in 2007 and to the five year average of 31 fatal occurrences with 49 fatalities. A total of 8 fatal occurrences involved commercial aircraft (3 aeroplanes and 5 helicopters), and 13 fatal occurrences involved privately operated aircraft (10 aeroplanes and 3 helicopters). The number of accidents involving ultralights decreased to 29 in 2008 from 30 in 2007, and the number of fatal accidents increased to 12 in 2008 from 5 in 2007.
In 2008, a total of 911 incidents were reported in accordance with the TSB mandatory reporting requirements. This is a 1% increase from the 2007 total of 895 and a 6% increase from the five year average of 857.
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/aviation ... /index.asp
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
You know, not to get all misty eyed here, but this is one of the most interesting threads in along time.
Kudos to all those that participated.
Kudos to all those that participated.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
I bet you all have just been dying for my input on this one .... 
Sorry, no time
I'm sure I'll think of something when I get back though!
Sorry, no time
I'm sure I'll think of something when I get back though!
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
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Redneck_pilot86
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Re: Alot of plane crashes?
See, it IS a conspiracy.JL wrote:
In 2008, a total of 911 incidents were reported ...http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/aviation ... /index.asp
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"
Re: Alot of plane crashes?
Interesting to see that the net reduction of accidents was powered by the reduction of private-aircraft accidents, while commercial operations' accident numbers increased a bit.
"Then from 1000 ft AGL until the final capture altitude, the A/C accelerates backwards up along the altitude profile with idle thrust"
