heavy vs biz jet performence

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magyar
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heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by magyar »

instead of googling throught it all. i thought i post a couple question here.

1.what heavy jet(777..?) has the highest rate of climb
2.what biz jet has the higest rate of climb

3.what heavy jet(777..?) has the highest service ceiling
4.what biz jet has the higest sevice ceiling


thankis for the answers in advance
ps. my guess is that biz jets can out perform the heavy's
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Invertago
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by Invertago »

The one with the best climb is the one that is only carrying the pilots and 10% fuel :smt025

Not the answer you wanted, but probably the best you're gonna get :mrgreen:
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Rockie
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by Rockie »

Transport category jets top out at 41 or 42 thousand feet (Concorde excepted of course). Corporate jets can be much higher than that. The A330 is probably one of the best, if not the best performer in climb for transports, but I'm pretty sure the Citation X, Global Express and Gulfstreams can beat it.

Anything with engines this big has got to be a lot of fun to drive.
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Tiny Tyke
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by Tiny Tyke »

From my ATC days I never recall any "Airliner" going above FL410. I think it has something to do with O2 rules and or rapid decompression and Time of useful consciousness. I think I remember seeing a biz jet at FL510.... but its really common to see them at 430-470.

The best story was the U2 climbing out through FL600 and cx ing the IFR and sqwauking 1200.

Slightly off topic, hope some of it helped.
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Invertago
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by Invertago »

Anyone else think the Citation X looks like Mickey Mouse from the front?
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by U/S »

No airliners are certified over 410. There are a number of business jets that will do 510, as was stated though most roll around in the mid-forties. As for climb rates Invertago said it best. I do remember seeing something about a Lear 25 having the fastest time to climb to 350.
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Pygmie
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by Pygmie »

U/S wrote:No airliners are certified over 410.
I've seen 747's up at 43,000 before, so that is not strictly true.
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complexintentions
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by complexintentions »

The B777 maximum operating altitude is 43,100 feet - don't know where it says no airliner is certified over FL410. Came home last night at FL400 for the last couple hours of the flight, but that's pretty rare. Most common operating altitudes would be from FL300 to FL380.

It's pretty hard to compare bizjets to airliners, the weight range of an airliner is so enormously wide compared to a corporate aircraft. At the weights that a heavy is designed to be economically or realistically operated at, of course a bizjet will climb faster and fly higher. Different machines, different purposes. I loved flying corporate to exorcise my fighter pilot fantasies, it's always a kick when you're climbing 4,000 ft/min and ATC asks if you can expedite climb...because they know you can! The ceiling on the Lear was FL510 but we never went there either.

The first poster says their guess is that bizjets can outperform the heavies..so I guess it depends on how you define "performance". To me, "performance" is performing a takeoff at 45 degrees Celsius, max t/o weight 350 tons with 450 people on board and knowing that if you lose an engine at V1 you will still be able to climb away...on one engine.

To use the famous catchphrase...apples to oranges. :wink:
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yfly
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by yfly »

Any business jet these days is certified to FAR Part 25 just like the heavy people movers. Corporate and commercial aicraft are all designed to meet target market demands so all have their strengths and weaknesses. The Global Express is an amazing performer in climb, cruise speed and has very long legs.

Certified altitudes on some corporate aircraft is up to 510 but I don't know how many are capable of operating there. Years ago, I had a Learjet to 48,900 feet and found it had some airflow separtion issues at the root of the winglets so I chickened out of going higher. Corporate aircraft typically operate at 390-450.

I have heard that both the Lear 60 and G-100 are able to peg the VSI at 9000 ft/min when light which is pretty impressive by any standard.

My only airline experience was on the A300, A310 and DC-10. Neither of them were extreme performers but the 10 climbed well when light! I remember >7500 ft/min on a position flight with crew only.

The 757 sure looks like it climbs, maybe thats why some corporate guys like them!

They are all good for their applications and have been glad to sample a variety of them.
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Cap'n P8
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by Cap'n P8 »

I've heard that the LR60 has the same thrust to weight ratio as an F18 without the afterburners. I'm flying a LR45 which is certified up to FL510, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I ever see that altitude!
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yycflyguy
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by yycflyguy »

I believe the reason most airliners are only certified to FL410 is due to FAR Oxygen that states above 410 one crew member must have a mask on... not that any of the Lear operators I worked for adhered to this rule.
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by Cap'n P8 »

We observe that rule...but it's funny how the airplane always seems to perform better at 400.
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by U/S »

Pygmie. You are absolutely right I stand corrected. The 47 and 77 is certified to 430. I've never seen one up there but I guess that doesn't mean they won't do it. I've been to 510 twice and its not the most relaxing place to be, mid-forties much better, more margin, less lumps growing on the neck.
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Re: heavy vs biz jet performence

Post by Topspin »

Tiny Tyke wrote:From my ATC days I never recall any "Airliner" going above FL410. I think it has something to do with O2 rules and or rapid decompression and Time of useful consciousness. I think I remember seeing a biz jet at FL510.... but its really common to see them at 430-470.

The best story was the U2 climbing out through FL600 and cx ing the IFR and sqwauking 1200.

Slightly off topic, hope some of it helped.
I recall reading something to the extent that the pax/crew will be unconscious or near it before the masks drop, or crew has the opportunity to put them on.

Wiki says:
At Concorde's altitude, the air density is very low; a breach of cabin integrity would result in a loss of pressure severe enough so that the plastic emergency oxygen masks installed on other passenger jets would not be effective, and passengers would quickly suffer from hypoxia despite quickly donning them. Concorde, therefore, was equipped with smaller windows to reduce the rate of loss in the event of a breach, a reserve air supply system to augment cabin air pressure, and a rapid descent procedure to bring the aircraft to a safe altitude. The FAA enforces minimum emergency descent rates for aircraft and made note of Concorde's higher operating altitude, concluding that the best response to a loss of pressure would be a rapid descent.[citation needed] Pilots had access to CPAP (Continuous Positive Airway Pressure) which used masks that forced oxygen at higher pressure into the crew's lungs.
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