Professionalism/phraseology

[square]

Good radio communication's a great resource, it's a nobrainer to solve every conflict I encounter with other people I find on 6/7 and airport freqs. But lots of the people out there are low-timers, renters and people on solo who understand not one iota of what is going on on the radio, and most of the time they're on the wrong freq or not listening. Look out.

[costermonger]

Used to hate weekends in the summer on our practice area frequency; full on conversations and such 22.75 gems as "can you see me now?" and "what're you groundin?" every two minutes. Usually didn't want to turn it off entirely and miss the relevant calls, but sometimes there wasn't any choice; the student can't learn effectively when you're talking over the radio all the time (even if it's quiet), and it's no better when you've got to to stop talking everytime somebody needs an update on Mabel's kids or Joe's neighbor's grass strip.

The common area frequencies around Toronto have been a godsend. Sure, there are a lot more "any conflicting please advise" calls, but at least there's some semblence of radio discipline.

[Intentional Left Bank]

Man, yuo guys sound like a bunch of tight wads in the air. The type of captains that f/o's hate to fly with or the type of f/o's that captains can't stand. Good for you if you follow radio 'laws' to the T, and don't fall into any radio lingo. But if you figure you're getting the job done any better than someone who says somethign like looking for lower, then you're wrong. And it's a stupid argument to get into, because anyone who is a tight azz on the radio is instantly going to throw the book at anyone who says otherwise.
Personally I enjoy when people are more laid back on the radio. Not unprofessional in any way, just more relaxed. Theres lots of time where stupid lingo has no place, but if you'd rather say looking for lower like thousands of other pilots do, or not repeat your call sign after every transmission when the area is dead, than good for you.

Say there 602, just curious, how do you feel about guys who follow SOPs "to the T"?

haha left bank, you are one of those I see. Maybe people like shouldn't worry about how you say things on the radio and instead be more worried about your flying skills. You sound like a flight instructor to me. Didn't I say people like you would throw the book? yup.

Thanks for answering my question. You couldn't have been more clear in your response.

[meflypretty]

There is nothing wrong with a little humor if you know when it is appropriate, and original. Repeating someone else's joke because you heard them do it on the radio just makes you an ass.

[chancellor]

Hedley - "Canadians talk way too much"


As proven by your 6900+ posts and Cat Drivers 12000+ posts.

[Dagwood]

Cat Drivers 12000+ posts.

As an aircraft is considered large above 12,500 lbs, does 12,874 posts make Cat Driver a Large Poster?





I know, it's lame... what else am I going to do on a Sunday afternoon?

[Liquid Charlie]

I can remember years ago while flying north out of Red Lake and 2 American registered airplanes were discussing their location and such -- and each disagreeing with the other - at least one of them was lost and they were in sight of each other -- the chatter was just getting on my nerves so I just broke in and said "you guys sound like you are really f'ked up can I help" -- well the silence was golden -- haha -- never did find out if they found God's Lake -- but then again there were no reported missing airplanes --

[FSS2552]

Well, I guess it all depends who you are.

Causal pilots who fly on week ends only when it's sunshine and no wind sure do like to chat with their buddies. Fine by me. But not on my freq, please.

Pro pilots who fly often and deal with ATC/FSS "normally" use a more standard phraseology and tend not to chat on other frequencies that much. Afterall, they usually have a buddy right next to them! They'll make a funny comment here and there but that's about it.

And finally, there are those at the other end of the mike, the ATS personnel. They should be the ones using proper phraseology because that's their job to communicate clearly to A/C's. They are checked every so often by their supervisors to ensure a proper use of comm.

Now, I'm totally in favor the humor in the job. Like some of the guys said, Professionalism and efficiency can go along with occasional humor, as long as it's tasteful and traffic levels permit.

It's all about dosing and having your message understood the first time.

However, what bugs me the most is when A/C already made contact with the ground station, there's no need to established that contact again.
Just say "ABC123 we're turning final Rwy XX" instead of;
"Tower ABC123"... "ABC123 Tower".. "Tower ABC123 is turning final Rwy xx"...

When this happens, it makes me think that maybe the pilot is having so issues or difficulties and will require assistance.

On a lighter note: Here are some stuff I find funny:

- Pilot will always start a radio call with the word "and": "And ahhh.. Sudbury Radio"
- Pilots are always looking for something "We're looking for clearance/advisory/weather etc..."
- Pilots are always talking as if they were more than one "We are..." "We'd like" even if they're alone in the plane....or maybe they think they are in symbiosis with the aircraft? Hmmm...
- Pilots say they check or copy. They must have a lot of paper flying around the cockpit with all that copying/checking

That's pretty much it!
But hey! I still love my job and I'm always up to hear a new joke on the air!

[atpl53]

-- calling level in a radar environment --

My understanding that calling level in a radar environment, in Canada, is required. Don't try it in U.S. airspace though.

[AuxBatOn]

-- calling level in a radar environment --

My understanding that calling level in a radar environment, in Canada, is required. Don't try it in U.S. airspace though.

Not since March 2007.

[atpl53]

Could you point me to this documentation?

Thanks

[AuxBatOn]

Could you point me to this documentation?

Thanks

Took me about 1 minutes to find out. Why didn't you look for it!?

8.4 Altitude Reports
Although the CARs do not specifically direct pilots to report altitude information to ATC, pilots, if not operating in radar airspace (i.e. radar-identified by ATC), should report reaching the altitude to which the flight has been initially cleared. When climbing or descending en route, pilots should report when leaving a previously-assigned altitude and when reaching the assigned altitude.

On initial contact with ATC, or when changing from one ATC frequency to another, when operating in radar or non-radar airspace, pilots of IFR and CVFR flights should state the assigned cruising altitude and, when applicable, the altitude through which the aircraft is climbing or descending.

In order for ATC to use Mode C altitude information for separation purposes, the aircraft Mode C altitude readout must be verified. The Mode C altitude is considered valid if the readout value does not differ from the aircraft reported altitude by more than 200 ft. The readout is considered invalid if the difference is 300 ft or more. Therefore, it is expected that pilot altitude reports, especially during climbs and descents, will be made to the nearest 100-ft increment.

Example:

EDMONTON CENTRE AIR CANADA 801 HEAVY, LEAVING 8 300 FEET, CLIMBING TO FLIGHT LEVEL 350.

If the phrase “report level,” “report leaving” or “report passing” is used by ATC the pilot shall comply (CAR 602.31 - Compliance with Air Traffic Control Instructions and Clearances).

Yes, it is a should, however it's the only way for ATC to know if you're level. In the CF rule books, I think it is a shall in a non-radar environment.

[shitdisturber]

On a slightly different note, I overheard a "professional" from one of Manitoba's operations reaming out a Keystone pilot on 26.7 today. The gist of his comment was to the effect of "Keystone pilot flying along the shore of Lake Manitoba why don't you make some bloody position reports, we almost hit you!" The interesting thing was I'd been monitoring 26.7 for over two hours at that point and that was the first time I heard this character's voice or his company callsign; I guess position reports are only required for the other guy.

[Janszoon]

Flying in the north there are quite a few folks who`ve been making animal sounds and the like, and when the passenger beside me (who is wearing a headset) hears this they look at me strangely and I can see they don`t find it humourous. I just have to shrug my shoulders and wonder what that passenger must think of pilot professionalism.

[Cat Driver]

I just have to shrug my shoulders and wonder what that passenger must think of pilot professionalism.

Judging by what we read here I don't think your passengers think much of the industry generally.

[GilletteNorth]

Lilfssister: Can one of you pilots clarify for me the meaning of "Go ahead your latest".
A) Just wanted to add something to their position and ETA
B) You want to know what I did last night
C) Last METAR or SPECI
D) You want an airport advisory, which I am required to give you anyway

+1

Just Another Canuck: This could just be a coincidence but the one American I flew with overseas, as well as the few who trained there, were among the worst on the radio. "We're uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, 55 miles outbound the, uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, 1 uh 75 degree radial. We're uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, headed to Mulia at 10-5. We're uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, 30 miles from uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" and so on and so forth.

This one is awful. Before you key the mike, please take a second to decide what you are going to say so it comes out without the "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh".

Hedley: I am sure I am in the minority, but I think in VMC that pilots would often be far better off to turn their radios off, and spend as much time looking outside as they would have spent prattling on endlessly on the radio

and

Shiny Side Up: If one was relying solely on the radio to determine a "conflict" the distance could easily be closed - better be looking out in front of you. With some pilot in addition being very inaccurate with their position reports - being approximately 2.5 miles behind the airplane by the time they finish their radio call, if there is a conflict someone better have spotted someone by this time.

-1 Pilot's can look outside with their eyes while listening to a radio call with their ears. Turning off the radio might be nostalgic but it's not a good idea.

FSS2552, pretty much everything you said sums up my attitude regarding the comments in this forum discussion. But I'll +1 this with you since it is very annoying to me as well:

However, what bugs me the most is when an A/C has already made contact with the ground station, there's no need to established that contact again.
Just say "ABC123 we're turning final Rwy XX" instead of;
"Tower ABC123"... "ABC123 Tower".. "Tower ABC123 is turning final Rwy xx"...

[atpl53]

Could you point me to this documentation?

Thanks

Took me about 1 minutes to find out. Why didn't you look for it!?

Having removed the dagger from my rib cage I asked ATC, airbourne, about this the other day. Their response was that while it is not required they did appreciate the call. I would suspect that is why we continue to make the level call.
To respond to your query about not bothering to look it up. If I spent my time looking up everything which is passed along in this forum as gospel, I would, in my humble opinion, waste most of my life trying to validate errant info. Doesn't account for me being lazy though.....

Dan

[Shiny Side Up]

-1 Pilot's can look outside with their eyes while listening to a radio call with their ears. Turning off the radio might be nostalgic but it's not a good idea.

Never said it was a good idea to turn it off, though in some cases it is almost necessary to turn it down when doing dual instruction so the student can hear you over the sometimes lengthy, nonsensical, confusing and inane chatter which goes on in a traffic frequency.

Many pilots you should also realise DON'T have the ability to look outside AND listen or talk on the radio. This leads to most radio calls out there being grossly inaccurate and ammount to their only useful info transmitted being that you know that the pilot making them is using the same frequency as you're listening on. Your average person processes about 25% of the information that they hear. And the longer the message, the less that percentage becomes. In other words, don't count on the idea that even if you give a very precise position report that other pilots will be able to figure out where you're at, or what to do with that information. People, by their nature, are poor listeners. Long story short, IF you can't listen and watch at the same time and have to make a choice, then keep those eyes peeled.

[GilletteNorth]

I quoted Heldey and you, that part

Turning off the radio might be nostalgic but it's not a good idea.

was directed to Hedley's comment.