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NWONT
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:33 pm 
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My thoughts exactly Chuck but you said it much better than I ever could.


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MrWings
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:54 pm 
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So, let me get this straight:

If you forget to lower the gear on land you are a moron.

If you forget to raise your gear on water you are a true gentleman and should get sympathy.


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Finn47
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:51 am 
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Plane is to be salvaged:

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Salvage ... story.html


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NWONT
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:17 am 
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I see nobody wants to touch this one cause its a waste of breath but I'll give it a shot. Lets use a Kingair on sched or charter as an example. Usually two crew with plenty of time for aircraft preparation, flight planning, weather, etc,etc. They know destination, altitude, alternates, all the good stuff. They seldom land more than six or eight times a day mostly on paved or at least prepared runways. If these guys land gear up they need a kick in the ass. A firefighter just hears " we have a dispatch for tanker XYZ". As he straps himself in he usually dosen't know what direction he is heading or how far. As he taxis out he gets the lat and long and what other aircraft are working the fire. He dosen't know where he will land next or where he will spend the night. He is under pressure to find a pickup area quickly to prevent the fire from getting away. All flying will be done single pilot, low level in reduced visibility due to smoke and windscreen covered in bugs. He may do as many as eighty or even a hundred landings a day in rock filled lakes and rivers. There will be no opportunity to level off at 10K to enjoy cool smooth air. All flying will be done at the tree tops in the hottest most turbulent air. He will often have to continuously change his pickup area as wind and fire progress change. He often land after dark, find something to call dinner, try to sleep, which can be difficult because his adrenalin keeps him at the fire all night. When there is a hot fire season like its been in BC this year he may have to keep up this pace for a very long stretch. Fatigue increases with each day but nobody wants to say they are tired. I could go on longer but I hope I've made my point. Then something is missed in a cockpit check that has been repeated over and over for many days. A firefighter is taken to the hospital, lucky to be alive but in a state of shock trying to figure out what happened. Those in this business feel compassion for someone who now is racked with humiliation and guilt over damaging his aircraft. We feel this way because we have all had a few close calls and know that could be me tomorrow. We also know a number of pilots who have lost their lives protecting other peoples jobs and property. The idea that someone would call him a moron just makes me sick. I hope this helps you understand Mr wings.


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Flying Nutcracker
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:57 am 
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I have never used the word "moron" about anyone, except when quoting others (just stating that for the record). I have the utmost respect for all the firefighting pilots out there who do a job that is as extremely challenging as mine is boring!

So I mean no disrespect to anybody, particularily the pilot involved, when I ask if this accident is excusable? If it is... then that whole thread about gear up landings has just become the biggest waste of cyberspace!

Nobody is immune! And if it was to happen to me, I would second the comment from someone saying that the pilot involved in this unfortunate waterlanding would feel humiliated and I would add humbled as hell!

Glad to see that buddy walked away from the accident! Curious of the whereabouts of Doc...


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Intentional Left Bank
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:53 am 
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Flying Nutcracker wrote:
Curious of the whereabouts of Doc...

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:36 am in the GEAR UP LANDINGS thread. Reposted, just in case anyone missed it.
Doc wrote:
Nope. Will never happen. Ever. I will not do this. If the gear "will not come down" then it doesn't count, but it's just one of those things that will never happen to me. I will NEVER...land gear up, because I forgot to put it down! Take it to the bank!

Not all accidents are part of a chain of events. There are not always contributing factors. Some accidents are caused simply by the pilot. All by himself. I know you have been taught all the warm and fuzzy, politically correct terms. They do NOT always apply. Long hours, duty times, fatigue and all the rest sometimes do have some bearing on performance. No doubt about it. But lowering the gear is right up there with opening the bathroom door BEFORE we piss in the toilet! It's just one of those things we DO!


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Seldom are two accidents alike.

Seldom do pilots deliberately wreck an airplane.

I am going to try and give some logical answers to this poster.

Quote:
So, let me get this straight:

If you forget to lower the gear on land you are a moron.


That is subjective and depends on who is assessing the accident and of course the situation under which said accident occurred.

Quote:
If you forget to raise your gear on water you are a true gentleman and should get sympathy.



In the case of the accident being discussed in this thread there are issues involved that make for a higher risk of a pilot making the mistake of landing with the gear down on the water than there are for a two crew gear up landing on a big airport.

Risk factors vary from one type of flying and aircraft type to another and amphibious aircraft are the highest on the risk factor scale of all the different gear types found on airplanes.

To further add to the risk factor we need to look at a pilots background and examine types of flying he/she has done and for how long.

If a pilot has thousands of hours of flying straight floats they are at the top of the risk factor to land gear down on the water in an amphibious airplane for the simple reason their brain is wired to land on the water with no need to check for the position of the landing gear.

Water bombing pilots are at an even higher risk of making this mistake due to the environment they operate in and the quick changes from land to water.

I have no idea of the background of the pilot involved in this gear down on water accident and am not referring to him in the above comment.

As to feeling sympathy for those who have accidents it is human nature to examine each accident and form your sympathy levels based on the circumstances involved in each accident.


Last edited by Cat Driver on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flyinthebug
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:43 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=669_Mu_zBAE (repeat post of this link)

If anyone cant clearly see the gear hanging down.. go get some glasses.. The guy that shot the video said "oh my god, his gear is down".. The gear was down.

Doc is ok all no worries. He doesnt fly an AT802 anyways.

I just reposted this video to show that BAD things can happen to GOOD pilots.

Im very pleased to hear the pilot is ok and that he has friends that stand behind his abilities and his character. It was a mistake and an accident.. He is NOT a moron or some 3rd rate pilot. Gear mistakes can happen Doc.. even to YOU.. as I hear this Captain had more hours even then you my friend. Complacency can kill anyone!

Fly safe all


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Flybabe
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:34 pm 
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Just reading NWONT's post made me think a bit about the culture we as tanker pilots encounter daily. Quite frankly, it's everywhere in aviation. Knowing that, there is NO fire worth risking your life for. Remember all the discussions about medevacs and the "mission to save a life" concept?? Same thing, it's not about risking YOUR life.

I realize there may still be some difference between the US and Canada, BUT - if we're tired, we take a break. If we can't see, we don't go there. Safety is paramount in this business. Cleaning your windshield may not be that easy if you're flying a Fireboss or a CL-215/415, I understand that - that's where we have a bit of a luxury as a retardant machine.

I hope the pilot of the tanker is doing alright. Please folks, let's be safe out there.


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MrWings
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:04 pm 
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NWONT wrote:
I hope this helps you understand Mr wings.
I understand that it is unwise to use a wide brush when you want to avoid paint on your precious trimwork.


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Spinner
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:18 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SmcRPSEiQo


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NWONT
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Well Flybabe, the problem always has been, at what point are we not just doing our jobs, but are now risking our lives. When you are fighting the same fire, in the circuit with other tankers, will one pilot say, " I'm pulling off as its become to dangerous for me". In twenty-two years in this business I've seen this happen twice, both times by Captains that had more experience than the combined experience in the other tankers. After many long days of firefighting when can someone say that they are too tired to go out again. Are you too tired to fly or are you just tired of fighting neverending fires. If you declared that you needed down time, before you drove off the airport, you'd be thinking, maybe I'm not really that tired and everybody else is still working. When you are resting in your lawn chair you would look up at every tanker flying over you house going to a fire, thinking I'm supposed to be there. Also with Twin Otters, 802's, etc, your gear is always in the right place for a landing but if you get overtired or distracted in the heat of battle you may not take note, just for a moment, of where you are landing this time.


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302sc
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Amen for this last post , in fifteen years of firebombing with retardant, once I thought the downdraft was taking us into the trees and several time I held the load for various reasons involving safety and yes also felt tired at times and somehow guilty to see other tankers fly while I tried to rationalize my decision to stay on the ground. it takes a close call to sometime realize how quickly events can unravel in this environment, been there and lucky to write about it :prayer:


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Driving Rain
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:28 pm 
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Single pilot water bombing is one of the most dangerous occupations on the planet, especially with the newer generation amphibious bombers. Be they Fire Boss or Twotters. I only had 8 years single pilot exposure before advancing to 2 crew aircraft for the last 20 years. I still get shivers from a couple of episodes back then. One such saw me land with the bomb doors open on a -3 on EDO's after an hydraulic failure. It sure stopped short but luckily didn't flip. I rather be lucky than good. :roll:
One things for sure, the pilot that had this misfortune will never, ever let this happen to him again.

Hey NWONT when are you pulling the pin? : :mrgreen:


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Cat Driver
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Remember the water scoopers are far more tiring than land based retardant bombers for the simple reason they do far more drops in a given time frame ( Take offs and landings. ) and they don't have the brief rest periods the land based machines have while loading.

Therefore there is a higher risk factor for making a mistake...especially flying the single pilot airplanes.


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NWONT
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:17 pm 
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Driving Rain, like you I can go anytime. There is a word in German, something like stopsemfromfloppin which means " fear of the closing door". As I said above, it will be difficult to see the birds flying over my house when I know fires are happening.


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Flybabe
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:28 pm 
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NWONT - some good insight, there. I agree wholeheartedly. Certainly not making any statements, just observations.

We get an 8 minute break while loading..... at 105 degrees F plus... in the shade. :mrgreen: It's still a break, though.


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NWONT
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:58 pm 
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I'd like to mention another event, not to be insensitive, but it does pertain to this thread and hopefully may help someone in a similar situation. I'm going to shorten it and it may not be exactly accurate. A group of CL-215's were working in another province. One pilot asked to be replaced as he was fatigued and having trouble with his neck and couldn't turn his head. It was suggested that he get a nights sleep in the roadside motel and see how he feels in the morning. The motel room has just one window, no cross ventilation ,no fan and no a/c. Restaurants are closed so he dines on a bag of potato chips then lays in a pool of his own sweat for the night. The next morning he again asks to be relieved for the same reasons. He is asked to do a flight while a replacement is located. He joins the other aircraft at the fire and soon the bird-dog directs a tanker to drop on a jump fire. The pilot says "there is a yellow tail in that jump fire". End of story. RIP


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CLguy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:30 pm 
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It is yet to be mentioned as a possible contributing factor but after a pilot deals with all the stresses previously mentioned in flying an air tanker, depending on the company you work for, you may also be dealing with the fact you are paid by the flight hour and how the winters financial picture is looking after a pretty quiet spring.

Like the saying goes, you make hay while the sun is shining!!!


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sky's the limit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:54 pm 
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Cat Driver wrote:

Therefore there is a higher risk factor for making a mistake...especially flying the single pilot airplanes.



Now you see why bucketing on a fire for eight hours a day in a helicopter is so fatiguing, particularly on a long line in the hills. We are limited to 8hrs flying and 12 on duty for that reason unless there are extenuating circumstances, are there similar limits on the FW guys?

stl


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Driving Rain
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:24 am 
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CLguy wrote:
It is yet to be mentioned as a possible contributing factor but after a pilot deals with all the stresses previously mentioned in flying an air tanker, depending on the company you work for, you may also be dealing with the fact you are paid by the flight hour and how the winters financial picture is looking after a pretty quiet spring.

Like the saying goes, you make hay while the sun is shining!!!


Ok I'l bite ......You hit the nail on the head with that one.
Me, myself and I, get paid to sit on a lawn chair. Not under the wing of course. :roll:
Salary let me count the ways .....and means. Full pension. [drugs.(medicine)] :prayer: @60 years old!!!!!!!
hospital and a monthly salary to take to old age. Did i mention inflation proof?!!!!!!
:roll:
CL guy..............Do you have any idea how your way of looking at things is ruining how others look at this industry?
:prayer: :prayer: :prayer:


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all_ramped_up
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:58 am 
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Apparently the Pilot is just fine... had a couple days off and will be back in the air soon, if not already. :)


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GilletteNorth
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:28 am 
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I for one am very glad to hear the pilot will be getting back in the saddle after his experience. And for exactly that reason, he now has a helluva experience to draw on to keep himself safer in the future. So what happended won't go to waste by him hanging up his spurs and saying that was the last time he goes flying. Good man.


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Easy Flyer
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Driving Rain wrote:
60 years old!!!!!!!


Hmmmm, ecstatic that you get to leave at 60. While the folks at Conair get frustrated that they have to give it up at 65. I know where I'd rather spend the next 30 years.... I mean 35 :) .


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North Shore
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:37 pm 
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Quote:
Now you see why bucketing on a fire for eight hours a day in a helicopter is so fatiguing, particularly on a long line in the hills. We are limited to 8hrs flying and 12 on duty for that reason unless there are extenuating circumstances, are there similar limits on the FW guys?


STL, at our place of work, we are limited (by our ops manual) to 8 hours on a fire excluding transit time, and 14 hours of duty time in total - not extendable.. I would imagine that other places are much the same..

A.


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